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Unread 14th July 2013, 10:14 AM
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Tartarus!? Greek mythical prison for the Titans or Biblical prison for fallen Angels?

Tartarus appears in 2 Peter 2:4 saying "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment." The word "hell" is the Greek word "tartaroo" which is a verb that means to be "cast down to Tartarus". This is the only biblical mention of this place and here it reveals that fallen angels are committed into pits of darkness. The KJV says "chains of darkness". This sounds a lot like the Greek mythical account of titans. So who borrowed from who? Is the biblical account a little too convenient especially when it's spoken to a Greek audience. How do we reconcile this?
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Unread 14th July 2013, 10:17 AM
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Mythology, any way you cut it.


Tartarus

by Martha Thompson
Tartarus is the lowest region of the world, as far below earth as earth is from heaven. According to the Greek poet Hesiod, a bronze anvil falling from heaven would take nine days and nights to reach earth, and an object would take the same amount of time to fall from earth into Tartarus. Tartarus is described as a dank, gloomy pit, surrounded by a wall of bronze, and beyond that a three-fold layer of night. Along with Chaos, Earth, and Eros, it is one of the first entities to exist in the universe. (Continues)


Hel

by Micha F. Lindemans
In Norse mythology, Hel is the ruler of Helheim, the realm of the dead. She is the youngest child of the evil god Loki and the giantess Angrboda. She is usually described as a horrible hag, half alive and half dead, with a gloomy and grim expression. Her face and body are those of a living woman, but her thighs and legs are those of a corpse, mottled and moldering. The gods had abducted Hel and her brothers from Angrboda's hall. They cast her in the underworld, into which she distributes those who are send to her; the wicked and those who died of sickness or old age. Her hall in Helheim is called Eljudnir, home of the dead. Her manservant is Ganglati and her maidservant is Ganglot (which both can be translated as "tardy").
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Unread 14th July 2013, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Lovely Jar
Mythology, any way you cut it.

Tartarus

by Martha Thompson
Tartarus is the lowest region of the world, as far below earth as earth is from heaven. According to the Greek poet Hesiod, a bronze anvil falling from heaven would take nine days and nights to reach earth, and an object would take the same amount of time to fall from earth into Tartarus. Tartarus is described as a dank, gloomy pit, surrounded by a wall of bronze, and beyond that a three-fold layer of night. Along with Chaos, Earth, and Eros, it is one of the first entities to exist in the universe. (Continues)

Hel

by Micha F. Lindemans
In Norse mythology, Hel is the ruler of Helheim, the realm of the dead. She is the youngest child of the evil god Loki and the giantess Angrboda. She is usually described as a horrible hag, half alive and half dead, with a gloomy and grim expression. Her face and body are those of a living woman, but her thighs and legs are those of a corpse, mottled and moldering. The gods had abducted Hel and her brothers from Angrboda's hall. They cast her in the underworld, into which she distributes those who are send to her; the wicked and those who died of sickness or old age. Her hall in Helheim is called Eljudnir, home of the dead. Her manservant is Ganglati and her maidservant is Ganglot (which both can be translated as "tardy").
Norse mythology is beyond the scope of this topic and I know what the Greeks say about Tartarus (I watched clash of the titans so I'm an expert) however I asked again... How do we reconcile this?
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Unread 14th July 2013, 04:57 PM
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I believe that Peter may have been refering to Genesis 6 where the angels sinned - There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Mighty men and men of renown.
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Unread 14th July 2013, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by DamianWarS View Post
Tartarus appears in 2 Peter 2:4 saying "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment." The word "hell" is the Greek word "tartaroo" which is a verb that means to be "cast down to Tartarus". This is the only biblical mention of this place and here it reveals that fallen angels are committed into pits of darkness. The KJV says "chains of darkness". This sounds a lot like the Greek mythical account of titans. So who borrowed from who? Is the biblical account a little too convenient especially when it's spoken to a Greek audience. How do we reconcile this?
It's just a question of linguistic limitations. Norse and Greek mythology do predate NT texts, so it is fairly obvious who borrowed from who. For instance, contextual evidence proves how the word ''Hades'' is the NT equivalent of the OT word ''Sheol'', the place of departed spirits.

Does that mean we go to Greek mythology to learn more about ''Hades''? No. Just view them as linguistic placeholders, cross reference them with OT scriptures, keep it within the Biblical context.

Bear in mind that the whole point of such communications is to further others' understanding of spiritual things, which is why these ''common'' words needed to be used. It's not a matter of convenience as much as it is a question of practicality.
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Unread 14th July 2013, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by brian57 View Post
I believe that Peter may have been refering to Genesis 6 where the angels sinned - There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Mighty men and men of renown.
+1. I think both the Greeks and the Hebrews kept remembrances of past events.
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Unread 14th July 2013, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by DamianWarS View Post
Norse mythology is beyond the scope of this topic and I know what the Greeks say about Tartarus (I watched clash of the titans so I'm an expert) however I asked again... How do we reconcile this?
Sure, watching Clash of the Titans will make you an expert.

How do we reconcile this? It's easy. We grow up and realize mythology is mythology and has nothing to do with us.
As for the rest Quantum nailed it.


And btw, Norse and Greek mythology are outside the scope of Christian Apologetics.
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Unread 14th July 2013, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Quantum Paradise

It's just a question of linguistic limitations. Norse and Greek mythology do predate NT texts, so it is fairly obvious who borrowed from who. For instance, contextual evidence proves how the word ''Hades'' is the NT equivalent of the OT word ''Sheol'', the place of departed spirits.

Does that mean we go to Greek mythology to learn more about ''Hades''? No. Just view them as linguistic placeholders, cross reference them with OT scriptures, keep it within the Biblical context.

Bear in mind that the whole point of such communications is to further others' understanding of spiritual things, which is why these ''common'' words needed to be used. It's not a matter of convenience as much as it is a question of practicality.
This is beyond semantics. Fallen Angels cast in a type of prison until the day of judgement sounds like the Greek version of Tartarus to me. The bible could have called it the place of jellybeans for all I care it still doesn't eliminate the fact that from function alone it sounds like the Greek version of Tartarus.
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Unread 14th July 2013, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Lovely Jar
Sure, watching Clash of the Titans will make you an expert.

How do we reconcile this? It's easy. We grow up and realize mythology is mythology and has nothing to do with us.
As for the rest Quantum nailed it.

And btw, Norse and Greek mythology are outside the scope of Christian Apologetics.
The conversation is about Greek mythical elements in the bible so that means Greek mythology is within context and Norse mythology is not... It's not difficult stuff here. When it appears in something we (main stream Christianity) calls truth (the bible) then either our truth is compromised or else we need to provide some explanation of what this passage means and why it is in the bible (this is the reconciling part)... again... not difficult stuff and it's unfortunate I have to hold your hand to get you to this point. Where the difficult parts are is actually engaging in an answer... saying "mythology is mythology and has nothing to do with us" doesn't really contribute any real information.
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Unread 15th July 2013, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by DamianWarS View Post
This is beyond semantics. Fallen Angels cast in a type of prison until the day of judgement sounds like the Greek version of Tartarus to me. The bible could have called it the place of jellybeans for all I care it still doesn't eliminate the fact that from function alone it sounds like the Greek version of Tartarus.
Imo, Peter is joining Greek and Hebrew histories together.

The Greek Titans were a primeval race of large and powerful deities who were overthrown in battle and banished to a place the underworld called Tartarus.

In Hebrew history, the Sons of God were deities who inhabited the earth prior to the Flood. They intermarried with human women and produced the Nephilim, who were giant men.

These sons of God were later banished to the underworld for teaching men to sin. Their children, the Nephilim, had their spirits stripped from their bodies and began roaming the earth as demons.

This Hebrew history appears in the Book of Enoch and is echoed by some early Christian writers such as Justin Martyr and Athenagoras.

Imo, in 2 Peter 2, when Peter references angels and Tartarus he's joining Hebrew and Greek history together, linking the Titans to the sons of God and linking Tartarus to the Hebrew underworld.
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