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  #91  
Unread 25th September 2013, 02:42 PM
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I ask forgiveness for lying that it was because he killed women and children and tried to vilify him when it was my own selfish reasoning for opposing him.

I didn't know that he was inspired by Brown and others. I guess I just thought of him as the leader of an angry mob. Probably because that's how he is often portrayed. I did read the he instructed his followers to not harm many of the poor whites in the area who didn't own slaves.
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  #92  
Unread 25th September 2013, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by AV1 View Post
How about these? The nuns of St Joanikija. (SP?) Here is a link from an LA Times article.
Serbian Nuns With Guns Put Most of Their Faith in a Higher Power - Los Angeles Times
Thought this one was highly interesting:
If a priest wants to defend his family or the church, why couldn't he? As it is, many monks of Greece actually had guns and protected themselves from the Turks. In example, there was a famous Greek War of Independence hero - Athanasios Diakos - who was actually a deacon and fought.

Within Orthodoxy itself, there are some interesting dynamics which give much to consider...specifically, things such as the 27th Apostolic canon which may be somewhat applicable:

(From the Rudder)

Canon 27 As for a Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon that strikes believers for sinning, or unbelievers for wrong-doing, with the idea of making them afraid, we command that he be deposed from office. For the Lord has nowhere taught that: on the contrary, He Himself when struck did not strike back; when reviled, He did not revile His revilers; when suffering, He did not threaten.
(c. IX of the lst-&-2nd; c. V of Antioch; cc. LVII, LXII, LXXVI, C, CVI, CVII; and I Pet. 2:23.).

Interpretation

In teaching His disciples His divine commandments the Lord used to say: "And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch." (Mark 13:37). One of His commandments is to turn our left cheek to anyone that strikes our right cheek (Matt. 5:39). If, therefore, this commandment ought to be kept by all Christians, it ought much more to be obeyed by those in holy orders, and especially by bishops, regarding whom divine Paul wrote to Timothy that a bishop ought not to be a striker (I Tim. 3:3). That is why the present Canon says too: If any bishop, or presbyter, or deacon strikes those Christians who offend him, or unbelievers that do wrong to others, with a view to making others afraid of him with such blows, we command that he be deposed from office. For in no part of the Gospel has the Lord taught to do such a thing as that: in fact, He has taught us quite the contrary with His example; since when beaten by the soldiers and Jews, at the time of His passion, He did not lift a hand to beat them in return. When accused and insulted, He did not insult others, nor did He accuse them. Even when suffering on the cross, He did not threaten to chastise them, but begged His Father to pardon them. "Those in holy orders ought to imitate the Lord by rebuking sinners and wrongdoers, in order that others may be afraid" (I Tim. 5:20), as St. Paul says, and "by sobering them, at times with teaching and admonition, and at times with ecclesiastical penances, but not taking revenge with wrath and anger, for villainy say, or for any offense such persons may have given them, or by beating them and thrashing them." In mentioning this same Canon, c. IX of the lst-&-2nd also says that not only are those in holy orders to be deposed who strike others with their own hands, but also those who get others to deliver the blows.
This canon addresses the use of violence by a deacon, priest, or bishop more generally, and does not address the use of violence specifically to defend another person whose life is in danger..... a situation that I doubt would result in the deposition of any. Of course, a priest may very well be deposed for taking a life, even if the taking of such a life was accidental (for instance, if a priest is driving a car and gets into an accident which results in the death of someone in the other car).

However, as another said, it would be ultimately up to the bishop to either apply the canons or exercise some kind of leniency if the situation was very exceptional. When it comes to priests and weapons, one is treading on the soil of the bishops. ...as they are the ones who interpret the discipline of the Church. There are several priests I've heard of who are/were police officers who carried weapons in their secular work. ..and the most any of them ever heard from a bishop was, "Try not to use your gun if you can." Essentially, it was as good advice as any peace officer can receive.

And on the issue, to see the ways that priests are being advised now with regards to violence is very fascinating when considering the history of the Church - specifically on the ways that violence (As much as it's noted to be something not done to other non-believers on the outside) was something that was used/advocated toward believers. For reference, I am reminded of the book "Jesus Wars" by Philip Jenkins, which is indeed an amazing one - very AMAZING read on a host of levels in light of how Philip Jenkins is able to communicate complex ideas and complicated concepts in a manner that preserves their integrity to a wide audience and at the same time renders them as a fascinating... And I was so thankful for the ways he detailed the ways that militancy was done by the Church at various points. For a brief excerpt:


May those who divide Christ be divided with the sword, may they be hewn in pieces, may they be burned alive! Second Council of Ephesus, 449
In 449, the leading Fathers of the Christian church met in Ephesus, in Asia Minor, to debate pressing theological issues. At a critical moment, a band of monks and soldiers took control of the meeting hall, forcing bishops to sign a blank paper on which the winning side later filled in its own favored statement. The document targeted the patriarch of Constantinople, Flavian, one of the three or four greatest clerics in the Christian world. Yelling Slaughter him! a mob of monks attacked Flavian, beating him so badly that he died a few days later. So outrageous was the intimidation that the ultimate winners in the conflict invalidated this whole council. They repudi[bless and do not curse]ated it as a Latrociniumwhich loosely means, a Gangster Synod.

From later history, we know of many episodes when Christians would resort to violence, especially against members of other faiths, but in this instance, the different sides agreed on so much. Both factions accepted the same Scriptures and the same view of the church and the hierarchy, and both agreed that Jesus Christ was God incar[bless and do not curse]nate, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. Where they disagreed so violently was over the nature of Christ. Flavians enemies, and their monkish militia, believed that Christ existed in a single nature in which the divine dominated. They felt that by failing to proclaim this truth, by advocating a Christ in Two Natures, Flavians party had betrayed the core of Christianity. Literally, they thought, Flavian had divided Christ.

From a modern point of view, we are baffled to see such extraordinary violence unleashed over what might appear to be a trivial philosophical row. Surely, we might think, these debates involved over-fine distinctions quite as trivial as the proverbial disputes over the number of angels who could sit on the head of a pin. Just what could have caused such bitter hatred? In fact, the conflict involves a paradox that is quite central to the Christian faith. Christians must believe that God is wholly human and wholly divine, but it is easy for a believer to stray too far in one direction or the other. Either we might think of Christ purely as God, in which case he is no longer human, has no share in our human experience, and becomes a di[bless and do not curse]vinity in the sky like Zeus or Thor; or else, in contrast, we focus so much on his humanity that we underplay the divine element and deny the Incarnation. We would preach a Christ of two natures and two minds, literally a schizophrenic being. According to his ene[bless and do not curse]miesunfairly and inaccuratelythat was Flavians sin, and brutal violence was the only appropriate response to his gross insult to the Son of God.

The violence was unforgivable, and so were all the acts of persecution and forced conformity. But in one sense, ancient Christians were exactly right to be so passionate about their causes, if not the means by which they pursued them. Far from being philosophical niceties, the central themes in the religious debates really were criti[bless and do not curse]cal to the definition of Christianity, and to the ways in which the faith would develop over the coming centuries. The Christ controversies did, and do, have immense consequences, for culture and politics as much as for religion.
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  #93  
Unread 25th September 2013, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by AV1 View Post
You guys go deep. .
Deepness tends to run in you as well

I like it, mostly because I enjoy studying this type of stuff. However, I have boiled it down to the nitty gritty when faced with the circumstances that may befall all of us...and what my response should be:

I trust in God that I will know it when I see it
Believing that will happen for you as well - as for many believers, that's really what it comes down to. And when seeing the Hall of Faith and how others differed in their actions - Daniel refusing to eat what was placed before him while other contemporaries like Esther lied/kept her identity secret ....and some chose to steal in hard times (like David when living as a mercenary in enemy territory/having to provide for loved ones) whereas others gave themselves to persecution - there is truly a dynamic of seeing differing variations in response.

I see no reason why it'd be different today.
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  #94  
Unread 25th September 2013, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by inconsequential View Post
I ask forgiveness for lying that it was because he killed women and children and tried to vilify him when it was my own selfish reasoning for opposing him..
Understood


I didn't know that he was inspired by Brown and others. I guess I just thought of him as the leader of an angry mob. Probably because that's how he is often portrayed.
To be clear,

There's no evidence Turner personally knew Brown - but when it came to abolitionists who fought for freedom (As Brown was alongside others), their actions were not lost on Turner from afar...with many noting that it was white abolitionists who in many ways helped Turner in developing the idea for rebellion.

Indeed. He's often portrayed in simplistic terms rather than shown for the complex individual he was.
I did read the he instructed his followers to not harm many of the poor whites in the area who didn't own slaves
Indeed - and that's a key factor to remember when it comes to knowing how not all oppressed blacks were unaware of the fact that many whites experienced some of the same and were on the same level as they were. During the rebellion Nat Turner abstained from drinking any alcohol; he also spared a white childhood friend, and the owners of his wife. Moreover, Nat also admonished his fellow slaves not to loot the various plantations.


But as it concerns Turner, he was very multi-faceted in his actions. It is the case that Christians should hesitate before applauding those who brutally killed people...and at the same time, we should hesitate before condemning Christians with the rare courage to willingly offer their own lives in an attempt to strike a blow against what seemed an implacable evil.

For good discussion on the issue:

Nat helped inspire a fanatic named John Brown to launch a similar attack on the South that led directly to the Southern secession and the Civil War. ..and the ways it could've been expressed have been debated by many.

As another noted best:
Between the Revolution and the Civil War, three dramatic events in Virginia focused America's attention on the problem of slavery. Gabriel's Conspiracy in 1800, Nat Turner's Rebellion in Southampton County in 1831, and John Brown's Raid on Harpers Ferry in 1859 deeply shocked white southerners and provided confirmation for those who argued that slavery was incompatible with American liberty. African American scholar and activist W.E.B. Du Bois once noted that the attitudes of an "imprisoned" group could take three forms: "a feeling of revolt and revenge; an attempt to adjust all thought and action to the will of the greater groups; or, finally, a determined attempt at self-development, self-realization, in spite of envisioning discouragements and prejudice." These attitudes ebbed and flowed with the "spirit of the age." The spirit of revolt exhibited by Gabriel in 1800 and Nat Turner in 1831 convinced John Brown in 1859 that the slaves across the South were ready and willing to emancipate themselves. All they needed, Brown concluded, was the moral and military guidance of an inspired leader. "Death or Liberty" examines these events and the debates about slavery, freedom, and sectional politics that raged in their wake. Finally the exhibition offers an overview of how the public memory of these events has changed.
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Unread 25th September 2013, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Gxg (G) View Post
Curious, of course, as to which cultural factors you had in mind as having so much of an effect.
I was referring to the southern slave-owning culture and how it wasn't viewed as a moral evil by many or most of those who participated in it. It's just how it was. That kind of perpetual victimization would have to wear on anyone, being part of system that is obviously evil (to the victims) while seeing how the perpetrators treat it as normal yet, it would also lead to a form of institutionalization in many who began to believe they were inferior.

I like how this is dealt with in the AMC program Hell on Wheels. It shows a lot of the complexity of race relations in that era in an honest, organic way. I watched part of an interview with Common where he talks about how he was drawn to the role of Elam because of the complexity of the character.

Revelations is probably my favorite episode with Cullen and Elam starting to understand and respect each other more. Cullen was a slave owner who freed his slaves a year before the war started at the behest of his wife, an ardent abolitionist. He later admits that she was right to have him do so and he kept them on as paid workers. He tells Elam about growing up, practically raised by one of the slaves and how when he returned from the war he found her body curled around his son's body in the burned barn where she tried to shield him from the flames. I wish I could find a clip of that dialogue but here is one about Elam.



After watching videos and writing about it, I realized I really need to get started on season 2.
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Unread 25th September 2013, 11:26 PM
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I just watched it again. Cullen recounts to Elam that it was finding the bodies of his son and former slave that showed him his wife was right.

"Their bodies were scorched black, fused together. You couldn't tell where one ended and the other began. And I thought to myself, 'God has a funny way of teaching you things.'"
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Unread 26th September 2013, 02:02 AM
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Originally Posted by inconsequential View Post
I was referring to the southern slave-owning culture and how it wasn't viewed as a moral evil by many or most of those who participated in it. It's just how it was. That kind of perpetual victimization would have to wear on anyone, being part of system that is obviously evil (to the victims) while seeing how the perpetrators treat it as normal yet, it would also lead to a form of institutionalization in many who began to believe they were inferior.
Originally Posted by inconsequential View Post
I just watched it again. Cullen recounts to Elam that it was finding the bodies of his son and former slave that showed him his wife was right.

"Their bodies were scorched black, fused together. You couldn't tell where one ended and the other began. And I thought to myself, 'God has a funny way of teaching you things.'"
Indeed....what you say makes sense. And yet, as noted earlier, it's ironic where the same dynamics still happen today - even with things such as the food we buy (when it comes at the expense of others) - and no one who may be against slavery is as prone to say it's wrong to get food that allowed for others to not be paid fairly/starve ....or not consider the cost of our consumeristic lifestyles on other countries whom we harm/pollute for things ranging from gas to electronic waste and other systems we love - in the same way many loved sugar cane and didn't care where it came from ...to the point of believing the myth that those who labored in slavery to provide for it weren't really "unhappy" and that it was made up claims that said they were suffering.


I like how this is dealt with in the AMC program Hell on Wheels. It shows a lot of the complexity of race relations in that era in an honest, organic way. I watched part of an interview with Common where he talks about how he was drawn to the role of Elam because of the complexity of the character.
Cool show and thanks for sharing it. The Railroad and what it brought to communities (both good and bad) is something that has been very fascinating to me when seeing how much it altered so much of life for African-Americans and Caucasians of so many stripes ...as well as other ethnic groups. There's an excellent book on the issue which has intrigued me and that may bless you if interested - entitled Empire Express: Building the First Transcontinental Railroad by David Howard Bain.
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Revelations is probably my favorite episode with Cullen and Elam starting to understand and respect each other more. Cullen was a slave owner who freed his slaves a year before the war started at the behest of his wife, an ardent abolitionist. He later admits that she was right to have him do so and he kept them on as paid workers. He tells Elam about growing up, practically raised by one of the slaves and how when he returned from the war he found her body curled around his son's body in the burned barn where she tried to shield him from the flames. I wish I could find a clip of that dialogue but here is one about Elam.



After watching videos and writing about it, I realized I really need to get started on season 2.
As interesting as the show is in what it symbolizes, I must admit that there are some aspects to it which did seem to put me off when considering the historical aspects of what occurred during that era. I accept and understand the dynamic of others working in positions that were not comfortable - such as with Elam in his work as security guard for others who condoned slavery at some point - but I also wonder what image is really being accepted in the end.

Adolph Reed, Jr....a professor of political science at the University of Pennsylvania, specializing in race and American politics, had some very fascinating insights on the issue of how often people wish to discuss oppression and the context it occurred in - and yet end up promoting a mindset that tends to lessen the weight of it inadverantly. As he wisely noted (for brief excerpt):
...the television drama Hell on Wheels constructs the wounded ex-Confederate much nearer its original form but with revisions that underscore the contemporary period dramas problematic and ideological relation to history. Adam Serwer adduces Hell on Wheels, which is set in 1865 in a mobile railroad town,as another illustration of the persistence of the trope of the vengeful former Confederate brooding hero/sociopath, albeit in a hilariously rationalized form. Its version of the character, Cullen Bohannan, had been a large Mississippi planter who freed his slaves a year before the treasonous insurrection in deference to his northern, anti-slavery wife whotrue to tale typewas later martyred by marauding Union soldiers, now the targets of his quest. Serwer is correct to say that the preposterous device of separating the heros Confederate loyalties from commitment to slave-holding is a transparent effort to sanitize the heros secessionism. However, the difference in historical context is crucial in this regard as well. The old Lost Cause tropes, originating in the early twentieth-century southern ideological campaign for sectional reconciliation on white supremacist terms, dont do the same cultural and ideological work in a society in which Glenn Beck appropriates Martin Luther King, Jr. to accuse President Barack Obama of racism that they did in a society in which racial subordination was supported explicitly by the force of law and custom. This is not to imply that theres nothing politically disturbing and reactionary about the conceits of Hell on Wheels. On the contrary, going beyond the superficial rehearsal of hoary tropes to consider the programs representations in their actual historical context discloses its more insidious work in legitimizing inequality.

The conceit that Bohannan had freed his slaves before he fought for secession does more than separate the treason from its foundational commitment to slavery. That conceit also replaces slavery as an institution with slaveholding as a matter of individual morality, as in Django Unchained. That Bohannan manumitted his slaves as a gesture of love for his wife folds into another trope of the genre, the pedestalizing, I love her so much Id change my raffish ways for her fantasy. Thats the happy face of adolescent patriarchy, its expression that doesnt usually involve a restraining order, though its probably best that the brooding loner heros sainted wife is nearly always a martyr and thus motivation for, instead of the object of, his sadistic violence and mayhem. But in Hell on Wheels that device also reinforces the reduction of slavery to slaveholding as an individual act, a consumer preference to be negotiated within a marriagelike owning a motorcycle, going to the strip club with the guys every weekend, or painting the living room magenta.


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Last edited by Gxg (G); 29th October 2013 at 01:52 AM.
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  #98  
Unread 26th September 2013, 07:14 AM
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That's why I'm glad I don't think too deeply about entertainment. I can just enjoy the story and dialogue without picking apart everything. I have a good friend, with whom I hate watching movies because he is a video editor and tends to make them unenjoyable by pointing out everything from plot holes to poor transitions. Adolph sounds like my friend on steroids.
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Unread 26th September 2013, 09:14 AM
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OK, I thought a little deeper. I'm on my phone so I can't be as verbose as I'd like; I hope I can distill my thoughts well enough here.

Cullen is portrayed as a good man driven to bad things by the murder of his family. He freed his slaves grudgingly to please his wife and only realized AFTER the war that she was right. His fighting for the Confederacy wasn't hypocritical. The fact that he was a good man, yet held slaves testifies to the power of the institution of slavery over the minds and hearts of ALL that it affected.

I think the strength of the program is that it humanizes the people and shows the reality that not all unionists were saints and not all confederates were villains. I think it does this by showing the wounds caused by such an evil institution on many different groups.

I may be wrong in my assessment but then a lot of what we take from subjective things like entertainment is based on opinion and what we want to see.
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Unread 26th September 2013, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by inconsequential View Post
That's why I'm glad I don't think too deeply about entertainment. I can just enjoy the story and dialogue without picking apart everything.
I think there are plenty of shows/forms of entertainment I don't think too deeply on and enjoy for its own sake. My cousin and I ended up discussing that when it came to some of my favorite shows such as "Avatar: The Last Airbender" and "Avatar: The Legend of Korra".....

Nonetheless, I'm keenly aware of how many take forms of entertainment and end up basing their views of history and the world on it - even when it's not accurate. And thus, the brain doesn't simply shut off to never consider influence.


I have a good friend, with whom I hate watching movies because he is a video editor and tends to make them unenjoyable by pointing out everything from plot holes to poor transitions. Adolph sounds like my friend on steroids.
Sometimes those friends can be a blessing and a benefit as well - even though other times you feel like saying "Can't we just suspend Disbelief"
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Proverbs 24:3-6
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