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  #1  
Old 19th June 2013, 05:07 PM
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Jesus kept the law

Riddle me this.... Jesus kept the law and yet he was not corrupted by keeping the law. There have been many posts on here that suggest that if a person does anything which was contained in the law such as tithing , keeping the sabbath , eating kosher or not stealing then they are under the law and not under grace. As though the two are mutually exclusive.

The false dilemma is set up as ---choose faith or choose the law. So how did Jesus keep the law and yet had perfect faith and was perfectly justified ?

On what basis was Jesus justified ? Where does his righteousness come from ?

Also Abraham , Moses and Elijah were all circumcised and yet were justified. So riddle me this . If keeping the law and doing works undermines faith and grace , then how did Jesus do the works that he did without being corrupted ?

Last edited by Yitzchak; 19th June 2013 at 10:51 PM. Reason: typos
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  #2  
Old 19th June 2013, 06:36 PM
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I riddle you nothing because I agree with you! Yeshua came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it Great points
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Old 19th June 2013, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Yitzchak View Post
Riddle me this.... Jesus kept the law and yet he was not corrupted by keeping the law. There have been many posts on here that suggests that if a person does anything which was contained in the law such as tithing , keeping the sabbath , eating kosher or not stealing then they are under the law and not under grace. As though the two are mutually exclusive.

The false dilemma is set up as choose faith or choose the law. So how did Jesus keep the law and yet had perfect faith and was perfectly justified ?

On what basis was Jesus justified ? Where does his righteousness come from ?

Also Abraham , Moses and Elijah were all circumcised and yet were justified. So riddle em this . if keeping the law and doing works undermines faith and grace , then how did Jesus do the works that he did without being corrupted ?

Jesus is the only Person who has been able to keep the entire Law without one failure. He was able to do that because He is the sinless Son of God. It was important for Him to keep the entire Law, so He could be a true substitute for us. A person who has tried to keep the Law and has failed could not be our substitute.

The curse with the the keeping of the Law is because when, as sinful people, we will fail, and are cursed because of our failure to keep the Law. The standard that Jesus taught involved more than just the external keeping of the Law that the Pharisees taught. He taught that true keeping of the Law was from the heart. But humans, because of the Fall, have sinful hearts, and trying to keep the Law with a sinful heart brings the curse of God on them.

Because Jesus did not have a sinful heart, because of the virgin birth, He could keep the entire Law with a pure, sinless heart. Therefore He could be our true substitute.

Jesus didn't need justification. He was already pure and sinless and therefore in Himself was already approved of God. When He died and took our sinfulness and curse upon Himself, God raised Him from the dead to show that He approved of what Jesus did for us. I guess that is a type of justification.

Jesus was always perfectly righteous. It was our sin that He took upon Himself on the cross. We are righteous before God because Jesus' righteousness has been bestowed on us in exchange for our sin. But Jesus died, taking the penalty of death for us, and went down into hell. Then God raised Him from the dead. This meant that our sin has been totally dealt with never to emerge again.

Our sinful natures will cause us to die physically, but we will be raised to sinless glory in the same way that Jesus was raised from the dead.

The OT saints were justified through faith. They were looking forward to the work of Jesus on the cross. We are looking back to it. Our faith is the same as theirs - centred on Christ. They were not justified on their own merits. Their faith in itself did not justify them. But their dependence on the Christ to come justified them in the eyes of God.

This is why Moses and Elijah spoke with Jesus during His transfiguration about His coming death. They were explaining to Him that it was important that He goes through death on the cross so their justification can be confirmed. If Jesus did not die, Moses and Elijah and the rest of the OT saints who were trusting in Jesus would not have been justified. But because Jesus did go to the cross and died, they will be joining us believers in glory.

Jesus taught that the Law is not abolished. It is still in force because it is God's holy Law. The fact that it is still a requirement on us, means that we still need to live holy lives. But we cannot do it perfectly by our own efforts. The fulfilment of the Law is that He kept the Law for us, enabling us to come to Him in our weakness and failure to depend on Him to keep us holy and pure through His grace.

We do not keep the Law to gain approval from God. We are already approved. Legalism is not keeping the Law as part of our developing sanctification. Legalism is anyone or church imposing the Law on believers as a requirement for salvation. Paul dealt with this in Galatians. But knowing that we need to live holy lives and trying our best, with God's grace to live worthy of the calling that we have received, is not legalism. Sometimes God leaves us in failure in some areas of our lives in order to keep us humble and aware of our dependence on Christ.

This is why we have a promise: "If we say we have no sin, we lie, but if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:8,9).
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  #4  
Old 19th June 2013, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by jehoiakim View Post
I riddle you nothing because I agree with you! Yeshua came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it Great points
Exactly. What if it is just that simple ? That God meant exactly what He said when He gave us these commandments.

Point number one ....We see here that Abraham was justified by faith and not by works.


Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.


Point number two...Why was Abraham circumcised ? To complete the inner work of faith that had already been accomplished.

I hope that we all know that Abraham received the physical circumcision out of obedience to God and as a sign of the covenant which was entered by faith. He did not neglect the commandment , but instead circumcised everyone in his household.


Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
Gen 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
Point number three...The way some talk and teach , they present the commandments of God and doing the works of God as something evil. But the Bible teaches that these works are a sign of real faith.

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
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  #5  
Old 19th June 2013, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Oscarr View Post
Jesus is the only Person who has been able to keep the entire Law without one failure. He was able to do that because He is the sinless Son of God. It was important for Him to keep the entire Law, so He could be a true substitute for us. A person who has tried to keep the Law and has failed could not be our substitute.

The curse with the the keeping of the Law is because when, as sinful people, we will fail, and are cursed because of our failure to keep the Law. The standard that Jesus taught involved more than just the external keeping of the Law that the Pharisees taught. He taught that true keeping of the Law was from the heart. But humans, because of the Fall, have sinful hearts, and trying to keep the Law with a sinful heart brings the curse of God on them.

Because Jesus did not have a sinful heart, because of the virgin birth, He could keep the entire Law with a pure, sinless heart. Therefore He could be our true substitute.

Jesus didn't need justification. He was already pure and sinless and therefore in Himself was already approved of God. When He died and took our sinfulness and curse upon Himself, God raised Him from the dead to show that He approved of what Jesus did for us. I guess that is a type of justification.

Jesus was always perfectly righteous. It was our sin that He took upon Himself on the cross. We are righteous before God because Jesus' righteousness has been bestowed on us in exchange for our sin. But Jesus died, taking the penalty of death for us, and went down into hell. Then God raised Him from the dead. This meant that our sin has been totally dealt with never to emerge again.

Our sinful natures will cause us to die physically, but we will be raised to sinless glory in the same way that Jesus was raised from the dead.

The OT saints were justified through faith. They were looking forward to the work of Jesus on the cross. We are looking back to it. Our faith is the same as theirs - centred on Christ. They were not justified on their own merits. Their faith in itself did not justify them. But their dependence on the Christ to come justified them in the eyes of God.

This is why Moses and Elijah spoke with Jesus during His transfiguration about His coming death. They were explaining to Him that it was important that He goes through death on the cross so their justification can be confirmed. If Jesus did not die, Moses and Elijah and the rest of the OT saints who were trusting in Jesus would not have been justified. But because Jesus did go to the cross and died, they will be joining us believers in glory.

Jesus taught that the Law is not abolished. It is still in force because it is God's holy Law. The fact that it is still a requirement on us, means that we still need to live holy lives. But we cannot do it perfectly by our own efforts. The fulfilment of the Law is that He kept the Law for us, enabling us to come to Him in our weakness and failure to depend on Him to keep us holy and pure through His grace.

We do not keep the Law to gain approval from God. We are already approved. Legalism is not keeping the Law as part of our developing sanctification. Legalism is anyone or church imposing the Law on believers as a requirement for salvation. Paul dealt with this in Galatians. But knowing that we need to live holy lives and trying our best, with God's grace to live worthy of the calling that we have received, is not legalism. Sometimes God leaves us in failure in some areas of our lives in order to keep us humble and aware of our dependence on Christ.

This is why we have a promise: "If we say we have no sin, we lie, but if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:8,9).

Thank you. I agree 100%. Very clear answer.
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Old 19th June 2013, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Yitzchak View Post
Riddle me this.... Jesus kept the law and yet he was not corrupted by keeping the law. There have been many posts on here that suggests that if a person does anything which was contained in the law such as tithing , keeping the sabbath , eating kosher or not stealing then they are under the law and not under grace. As though the two are mutually exclusive.

The false dilemma is set up as choose faith or choose the law. So how did Jesus keep the law and yet had perfect faith and was perfectly justified ?

On what basis was Jesus justified ? Where does his righteousness come from ?

Also Abraham , Moses and Elijah were all circumcised and yet were justified. So riddle em this . if keeping the law and doing works undermines faith and grace , then how did Jesus do the works that he did without being corrupted ?
During the episode when John the Baptist baptised Jesus, John says something to the effect, you come to me while I should be coming to you:
Matthew 3:15, Jesus replied, let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness. Then John consented.

I just love it how people now days believe that because Jesus followed laws and rules that this means we have to too. Jesus, no matter that He was God in the flesh, was on the other side of the cross, meaning, the work of salvation was not yet complete and the laws still had to be obeyed. Therefore, yes, Jesus obeyed all the laws and all the feasts, why? Because as a Jew He had to just like everyone else during his day. Yet, when Jesus shead his blood on the cross, died and rose again from the dead, a new and everlasting covenent had been born! No more regulations, no more laws! Those laws are now written in your heart, in your born again spirit. Those laws are no longer external but internal. Those laws aren't on a page you can read but in your spirit, they are apart of your new nature. It's all about goodness, forgiveness, love, and kindness. Throw out the old and put on the new!!
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God didn't send His Son to pay for the forgiveness of your sin, and then decide He is going to require you to make installment payments. He only requires you to believe that the FULL PAYMENT was done, over 2000 yr. ago..........then you'll stop trying to make the installments on something you could never pay for anyway. The Good News is that you are debt free!

Last edited by nephilimiyr; 19th June 2013 at 08:51 PM.
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Old 19th June 2013, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by nephilimiyr View Post
During the episode when John the Baptist baptised Jesus, John says something to the effect, you come to me while I should be coming to you:
Matthew 3:15, Jesus replied, let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness. Then John consented.

I just love it how people now days believe that because Jesus followed laws and rules that this means we have to too. Jesus, no matter that He was God in the flesh, was on the other side of the cross, meaning, the work of salvation was not yet complete and the laws still had to be obeyed. Therefore, yes, Jesus obeyed all the laws and all the feasts, why? Because as a Jew He had to just like everyone else during his day. Yet, when Jesus shead his blood on the cross, died and rose again from the dead, a new and everlasting covenent had been born! No more regulations, no more laws! Those laws are now written in your heart, in your born again spirit. Those laws are no longer external but internal. Those laws aren't on a page you can read but in your spirit, they are apart of your new nature. It's all about goodness, forgiveness, love, and kindness. Throw out the old and put on the new!!
I couldn't help responding to this but here I go.

It is quite true that the law is written in our new hearts, but this does not mean that we ignore what is written in the Scriptures where the law of God is explained to us. Paul taught that the Law is not abolished. If there was no more Law and we followed just what was in our hearts, we could lapse into antinomianism - which is in essence, "we are saved so now we can do what we like." This is not true. Paul teaches that God's Law is holy, and to live a life of holiness, we need to pay attention to God's Law and make it a guide for our lives. There is no alternative to God's Law. Departing from it means that we become laws to ourselves and we could very well end up departing from the will of God for our lives if we thought we could live without God's Law governing our behaviour and conduct.

I said "pay attention" to the Law of God, because we know that we cannot keep fully to it because of our sinful nature. Because we have already broken the law before our conversion anyhow, outside of Christ, we were under the curse, guilt and punishment of the Law. This would not have changed even if we had been able to keep the Law for the rest of our lives. We have already broken it, so in the natural we are guilty, condemned, under God's curse, and could only expect punishment.

However, as I have explained before in this thread, Jesus died on the cross as our substitute and through that delivered us from the guilt, curse and punishment of failing to keep the Law. Jesus kept the Law for us, so when we sin (failing to keep the Law), God has provided His throne of grace where we might run boldly to and throw ourselves on the mercy and grace of God. There, we confess that we are weak and have failed to keep His Law in the specific area where we have failed. He then forgives and cleanses us. We can do this more than seventy times seven times a day because His grace is infinite.

The standards of the Law are always before us. We never depart from them. It is our new heart that makes the Law even more important to us. Before we got our new heart, we were rebelling against God and His Law, but now we are wanting to live by it. That's what Paul said: "In my heart, I delight in the Law of God" (my paraphrase). We now love the Law and do all we can to keep it. We grieve and mourn that we come so far short of it, and that we fail so many times. That sense of grief and mourning comes because of our new heart, and this is what makes us running to Christ for His grace to keep us walking worthy of our calling in Him.

So, I am not disagreeing with you, but clarifying the point, so that some do not think that we don't have to live according to God's Law.

Legalism is someone or a church requiring us to abide by God's Law or their set of religious rules in order to be saved or to be accepted into membership. We don't keep the Law to be saved and to be approved of God because we are approved already in Christ, and we are covered by the righteousness of Christ.

But we try to keep God's Law out of love and reverence for Him, because we are already saved and approved of by His mercy and grace. We do it because of our love, gratitude, and respect for His standards. Our greatest desire is to be holy believers worthy of bearing His Name. This is why we often pray, "I love your Law. They are a delight to my heart. Enable me, by Your grace to walk in your statutes that I might praise and honour your Name."
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  #8  
Old 19th June 2013, 10:55 PM
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One false premise that comes up a lot is the false idea that doing a good works and obeying God is somehow legalistic. But this is not how the Bible presents it. The Bible presents it as the inner heart attitude being what really matters.

Take the Sabbath , as an example. Some speak of it as though it is some kind of a sin to keep the Sabbath and automatically legalistic. But the Bible teaches that a person can do something both out of a place of faith or out of a place of legalism.

Taking this extreme and incorrect position that a Christian cannot do anything contained in the Old Testament or commanded of the Jews is ridiculous and easily exposed , as such. take for example , the passage in Matthew...Should we conclude from the fact that Jesus was correcting their legalistic way of praying and giving that praying and giving are legalistic , in and of themselves ? Should we conclude from the fact that God commanded the Jews to pray , that it is therefore a part of the law and Christians should not pray ? Why pick and choose ? Why is eating kosher seen as somehow legalistic and praying is not ? Riddle me this ....

Mat 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
Mat 6:2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Mat 6:3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
Mat 6:4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
Mat 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Mat 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Mat 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

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  #9  
Old 19th June 2013, 11:34 PM
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There are a couple of points I'd make

#1 - when Paul talks about "works of the law" he isn't talking about the moral law, or good works, he is talking specifically about ceremonial aspects such as circumcision.

#2 - All people must obey the moral law and live rightly. We are only able to do this by God's grace through Jesus Christ, but it still must be done.

#3 - The ceremonial/ritual aspects of the Law, the Mosaic Covenant of Sinai, has been fulfilled and renewed in Jesus Christ and his New Covenant. While there is nothing inherently wrong with observing things like the sabbath, circumcision and feasts, this does become wrong when these things are observed in place of their New Covenant incarnation. At that point you are essentially rejecting the New Covenant in favor of the old. Paul talks about this in Hebrews where he says that the "servants of the tent" meaning Jews who still adhere to the Old Covenant, have no right to partake of the altar of Christianity. In other words, they are not permitted to Christian communion.

As Jesus said to the pharisees, if they had believed Moses, they would have believed Jesus. In rejecting the New Covenant, you also reject the Old, even if you still uphold the letter of the Law.
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Old 20th June 2013, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Oscarr View Post
I couldn't help responding to this but here I go.

It is quite true that the law is written in our new hearts, but this does not mean that we ignore what is written in the Scriptures where the law of God is explained to us. Paul taught that the Law is not abolished. If there was no more Law and we followed just what was in our hearts, we could lapse into antinomianism - which is in essence, "we are saved so now we can do what we like." This is not true. Paul teaches that God's Law is holy, and to live a life of holiness, we need to pay attention to God's Law and make it a guide for our lives. There is no alternative to God's Law. Departing from it means that we become laws to ourselves and we could very well end up departing from the will of God for our lives if we thought we could live without God's Law governing our behaviour and conduct.

I said "pay attention" to the Law of God, because we know that we cannot keep fully to it because of our sinful nature. Because we have already broken the law before our conversion anyhow, outside of Christ, we were under the curse, guilt and punishment of the Law. This would not have changed even if we had been able to keep the Law for the rest of our lives. We have already broken it, so in the natural we are guilty, condemned, under God's curse, and could only expect punishment.

However, as I have explained before in this thread, Jesus died on the cross as our substitute and through that delivered us from the guilt, curse and punishment of failing to keep the Law. Jesus kept the Law for us, so when we sin (failing to keep the Law), God has provided His throne of grace where we might run boldly to and throw ourselves on the mercy and grace of God. There, we confess that we are weak and have failed to keep His Law in the specific area where we have failed. He then forgives and cleanses us. We can do this more than seventy times seven times a day because His grace is infinite.

The standards of the Law are always before us. We never depart from them. It is our new heart that makes the Law even more important to us. Before we got our new heart, we were rebelling against God and His Law, but now we are wanting to live by it. That's what Paul said: "In my heart, I delight in the Law of God" (my paraphrase). We now love the Law and do all we can to keep it. We grieve and mourn that we come so far short of it, and that we fail so many times. That sense of grief and mourning comes because of our new heart, and this is what makes us running to Christ for His grace to keep us walking worthy of our calling in Him.

So, I am not disagreeing with you, but clarifying the point, so that some do not think that we don't have to live according to God's Law.

Legalism is someone or a church requiring us to abide by God's Law or their set of religious rules in order to be saved or to be accepted into membership. We don't keep the Law to be saved and to be approved of God because we are approved already in Christ, and we are covered by the righteousness of Christ.

But we try to keep God's Law out of love and reverence for Him, because we are already saved and approved of by His mercy and grace. We do it because of our love, gratitude, and respect for His standards. Our greatest desire is to be holy believers worthy of bearing His Name. This is why we often pray, "I love your Law. They are a delight to my heart. Enable me, by Your grace to walk in your statutes that I might praise and honour your Name."
One question, how do you ignor your new nature? I know it's possible but how do you?

You're new nature enables you to live a righteous life because within that nature is also where the law is, so the answer is to live by the spirit, not by the law. The law was given mearly to show wrong doing, the Spirit was given to enable you to live by it.

I don't really mean this but, if you want the law you can have it. This I do mean, I'd rather have just the Spirit, because within the Spirit are both the law and the ingredients for overcoming sin. With the law you only have the law, you can't have both if you chose to follow the law. You can have both if you chose to follow the Spirit.
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God didn't send His Son to pay for the forgiveness of your sin, and then decide He is going to require you to make installment payments. He only requires you to believe that the FULL PAYMENT was done, over 2000 yr. ago..........then you'll stop trying to make the installments on something you could never pay for anyway. The Good News is that you are debt free!

Last edited by nephilimiyr; 20th June 2013 at 12:57 AM.
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