The Shepherd's Chapel Series #2

ALLEGATION: "Denies the existence of eternal Hell."

Before I can answer this charge, it becomes necessary for me to ask the critics a question.

When they say the word "hell", are they referring to sheol, hades, gehenna, tartaroo, or the lake of fire? I speak not necessarily of specific definitions, but their various applications.

It is only in light of this clarification that I may be able to provide a reasonable dialogue.

It may have also been noted that I am testing the scholarship of the higher criticism.

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(Isa 2:11) The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

RVincent - I think the critics here are referrring to Murray doctrine of annihilationism. Arnold Murray denies that every person who goes to hell will suffer there forever. This is the eternal hell that Murray denies.

Thank you Humble_soul. I agree that that is what they are saying.

I don't expect everybody to believe as I do, but here is the Biblical basis for it:

(Rev 20:10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The Greek Interlinear defines "torment" thusly:

THEY-SHALL-BE-BEING-ORDEALizED
basanizO

ordeal 1. A difficult or painful experience, especially one that severely tests character or endurance.

2. A method of trial in which the accused was subjected to physically painful or dangerous tests, the result being regarded as a divine judgment of guilt or innocence.

Both definitions provide us with "endurance" or "result". So we may ask, "How shall Satan endure, or what shall be the result of his ordealing?"

(Ezek 28:18-19) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. {19} All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Naturally, such a state of non-exist is "forever and ever". Annihilation is eternal pnishment.

The Mossorah points to an Acrostic in Psa 37, in which verses 7, 20, and 34 describe the destruction of the wicked. It describes them as "consuming away" into smoke (v. 20). That's pretty permanent...forever and ever.

(Mat 10:28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

destroy. apollumi, ap-ol'-loo-mee; from G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflex. to perish, or lose), lit. or fig.

Why base it on the Old Testament? "The writers were Hebrews; and thus, while the language is Greek, the thoughts and idioms are Hebrew." (App. 94)

In summary, while the critics base their interpretation on one verse (Rev. 20:10), and that being an English translation of "ordeal", Pastor Murray bases it on many verses, thus making his more complete and truer to truth.

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(Isa 2:11) The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

RVincent - Your summary is flawed. Do you honestly believe that the doctrine of eternal punishment is based on a single verse? You have given 2 verses that supposedly back up the position of Murray, but they don't prove your argument.

Without trying too terribly hard, I have come up with two additional verses that teach a continual punishment in hell. This means that there are at least 3 verses in the Bible that teach a continual punishment in hell, including Rev 20:10 that you used above.

Verse for external punishment in hell:

Matthew 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal".

How can punishment be everlasting if your soul is destroyed? I suppose you will say that destruction of the soul is forever, therefore the punishment is everlasting, but that is reading into the text.

Here is another verse that teaches eternal punishment in hell:

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Here is another interesting verse about hell:

Matthew 23:14 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation".

If all are destroyed in hell, how can some receive "greater damnation"? This verse isn't talking about Satan receiving greater damnation, it is the scribes and pharisees. No, this verse is teaching degrees of suffering and punishment in hell. How can this be, if all in hell are "destroyed" as Murray teaches.

In summary. The doctrine of an external, conscious punishment in hell is a basic Christian doctrine which Murray denies. This is why his critics charge him of such.


Murray seems to have forgotten a very important principle of hermeneutics. The bible does not have any contradictions. Any contradictions that appear must be resolved if your interpretation is to be true. Murray's interpretation is not more true than those who hold to the Orthodox position of an eternal conscious punishment.

Before I forget, what do you think about Murray threatening the guy in his studio with a 9mm? I used to watch Murray all the time until I was witness to that incident! Also the fact that he has made false prophecies makes him suspect.

I pray that your eyes will be opened and you'll get out of that dangerous cult.

Just do a search for "Murray 9mm" on google and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Kind regards,
humble_soul

Hello humble_soul.

Well, what would you have me read into the text? That the screaming and burning is everlasting? It didn't say that either. It appears that I can read into the text my interpretation or yours.

(Revelation 14:11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

1. The smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. Just like in Matt. 25:46, it said nothing of their screaming and wiggling.

2. Understand where we are in these verses chronologically. It is the first day of the millenium. The Great White Throne of Judgment won't happen for another 1,000 years. They have just realized that they worshipped antichrist. With the King of Babylon as our type, let us compare these verses to Lamentation, which means "Alas!" (the Hebrew title). Would you like to know why these people have "no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image"?:

(Lam 2:17) The LORD hath done that which he had devised; he hath fulfilled his word that he had commanded in the days of old: he hath thrown down, and hath not pitied: and he hath caused thine enemy to rejoice over thee, he hath set up the horn of thine adversaries.

Who is our enemy, and adversary? It's Satan. These people have just been thoroughly duped.

(Lam 2:18) Their heart cried unto the Lord, O wall of the daughter of Zion, let tears run down like a river day and night: give thyself no rest; let not the apple of thine eye cease.

This is their state on the first day of the millenium, and they'll remember what they've done forever...a good lesson.

Well, will some people have the oven turned on at 300 degrees and some at 350? What difference will that make?

(Mat 23:14) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Contrary to popular belief, "damnation" is not always a reference to hell. It can also mean "A decision or judgment". Quite frankly, hell is not mentioned anywhere there. So who is reading something into it? Again, this is written of concerning the millenium period:

(Ezek 44:10) And the Levites that are gone away far from Me, when Israel went astray, which went astray away from me after their idols; they shall even bear their iniquity.

(Ezek 44:11) YET they shall be ministers in my sanctuary, having charge at the gates of the house, and ministering to the house: they shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them.

(Ezek 44:12-13) Because they ministered unto them before their idols, and caused the house of Israel to fall into iniquity; therefore have I lifted up mine hand against them, saith the Lord GOD, and they shall bear their iniquity. {13} And they shall not come near unto me, to do the office of a priest unto me, nor to come near to any of my holy things, in the most holy place: but they shall bear their shame, and their abominations which they have committed.

So here we've got a pretty good punisment, but it didn't say they're "going to hell".

A lot of Christians do seem to like the idea of people burning. That's Molech worship.

I thought it was amuzing! And then I remembered that verse where it says "For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me." (Psa 69:9)

That young kid carried a reproach, into God's house, and got a nice escort out!

You don't have to find the wav file. I've got it on my hard drive.

Are these false prophecies you heard him make? Or did you hear that somebody else heard that somebody else heard he made? Or did you read somewhere that someone heard him make it?

I have a very detailed answer to that here:

http://khyron_4.tripod.com/PMurray/german.html

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(Isa 2:11) The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

Oh well, I've wasted enough time here.

It's not a waste to try humble_soul.

Study both testamnets, and keep on plowing!

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(Isa 2:11) The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.