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  #21  
Unread 12th May 2013, 09:18 PM
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There is one parish in my town that offers traditional and more contemporary Mass settings, both are well attended.

But neither of them would provide the "freedom" that the person talked about in the article as the Mass itself simply makes that impossible. You can use more up to date songs, but I doubt we'll ever see Evangelical style praise and worship bands at a Mass.
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  #22  
Unread 12th May 2013, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Rhamiel View Post
if you could find that podcast, well that would be awesome
Found it! Sorry it's not a direct/downloadable link, but I'm pretty sure this is the podcast I was listening to. I may have been a bit off in my recollection of the topic, as their discussion was more specific to people seeking out a more transcendent form of worship in Catholicism or Orthodoxy, etc but if I remember right the way their discussion ultimately went was that "people are seeking out more transcendent worship but maintaining their protestant doctrines".

WHI-1102 | The Worship Experience - White Horse Inn Blog

I'd take their theory farther and say that people are leaving Evangelicalism altogether for something with actual substance. I've spoken with a number of people over the last couple of years who were former Evangelicals but now attend Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran or Anglican parishes and their reasons for leaving Evangelicalism were all more or less the same: over the last decade the Evangelical style of church had devolved into a side show.

Originally Posted by Tallguy88 View Post
You will always see God in a seedy pub. But most people fail to recognize Him.
Yeah, that's a good point.


Originally Posted by Tallguy88 View Post
The pendulum swings both ways.

I was raised fundamentalist. Converted to Catholicism and became a "liturgy" worshiper. Didn't like the unstructured style of evangelicals. Now I've mellowed and can see the good points and bad points in both styles.

I don't find either to be inherently superior to the other. They appeal to different people based on culture, personality, and familiarity.
That's not to say there's no objective truth though, right? I mean I'm still having trouble seeing the merit in Evangelicalism because of the horribly flawed theology... that's me though.
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  #23  
Unread 12th May 2013, 09:30 PM
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This one is a bit too 'internal' for me, as a non catholic, to contribute too, but I wanted to make one point.

The article says that Latino people are finding Catholic Mass to be too restrictive, yet, before the election of the new Pope, I read that there was strong support for a South American Pope because 40% of the worlds Catholics live in Latin America.

Which suggests to me that the problem is not all that big among Latino people really.
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  #24  
Unread 12th May 2013, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ZaidaBoBaida View Post
Such as? And who gets to decide that? If something wildly inappropriate was going on the bishop would get involved, right? I think singing The Our Father is inappropriate, but ultimately I don't get to decide that.
Presumably the primary responsibility is with the bodies who are in charge of liturgy.

One of the things they look at is how the liturgy has been done historically. Given that The Lords Prayer, along with the rest of the ordinary of the mass, has been sung through much of the history of the Church, they are unlikely to decide it should not be sung.
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  #25  
Unread 12th May 2013, 11:33 PM
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I think that there needs to be recognition that parishes are no longer composed of homogeneous, cohesive groups of people and that we live in a mobile society of ethnically and religiously diverse people and in a culture where traditional religious values are not supported.

Churches that understand what the word "ministry" is about will recognize all these factors and take decisive action to address each of these issues.

The fact that Hispanics are switching to evangelical churches underscores it--people don't worship in a vacuum, and liturgies aren't one size fits all...

A liturgy that liturgists "assume" God prefers (the God who created thousands of planets and universes far beyond the view of our strongest telescopes and the reach of our space ships) that drives people away is a poorly designed liturgy.

I am convinced that God has far more eclectic tastes than we can even imagine--and as long as sincerity is part of the mix, He likes it all.
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  #26  
Unread 12th May 2013, 11:54 PM
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I have an odd question- which likely shows my ignorance of Catholic liturgy. Is the Tridentine/Extraordinary form ever performed in English or the language of the people?
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  #27  
Unread 12th May 2013, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Fantine View Post
I think that there needs to be recognition that parishes are no longer composed of homogeneous, cohesive groups of people and that we live in a mobile society of ethnically and religiously diverse people and in a culture where traditional religious values are not supported.

Churches that understand what the word "ministry" is about will recognize all these factors and take decisive action to address each of these issues.

The fact that Hispanics are switching to evangelical churches underscores it--people don't worship in a vacuum, and liturgies aren't one size fits all...

A liturgy that liturgists "assume" God prefers (the God who created thousands of planets and universes far beyond the view of our strongest telescopes and the reach of our space ships) that drives people away is a poorly designed liturgy.

I am convinced that God has far more eclectic tastes than we can even imagine--and as long as sincerity is part of the mix, He likes it all.
You had one good point and one bad point in there. Yes we do need more focus on ministries outside of Mass, and luckily that seems to be a problem that is actually being worked on with some intensity.

But your second point, about an eclectic congregation needing an eclectic liturgy, is actually counter-intuitive.

Diverse liturgies (or more accurately liturgical customs), would really only work in ethnically homogeneous congregations. A parish almost entirely composed of Latinos isn't going to have hardly anyone that's uncomfortable with outbursts of passion. Nor is a parish of African immigrants going to have many that are uncomfortable with the hop-clap singing so many of them do (don't know what it's called).

The one size fits all Western European Mass style is precisely what would have the best chance of working in a diverse parish as that is the standard that has been imposed everywhere the Catholic Church has ever evangelized. It is the default that makes no Catholic uncomfortable.

We need a standard, like we have in the Novus Ordo, that can be tweaked according to need. What we definitely don't need is the liturgical chaos and anarchy you seem to be advocating.
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To him be glory and might unto ages of ages. Amen.
- From Saint John Chrysostom's Paschal Homily.
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  #28  
Unread 12th May 2013, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by seashale76 View Post
I have an odd question- which likely shows my ignorance of Catholic liturgy. Is the Tridentine/Extraordinary form ever performed in English or the language of the people?
Rarely, I've only seen it done once and that was a special occasion "test run".
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Christ is risen, and you are overthrown!
Christ is risen, and the demons are fallen!
Christ is risen, and the angels rejoice!
Christ is risen, and life reigns!
Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in a tomb!
For Christ, being raised from the dead, has become the first-fruits of them that slept.
To him be glory and might unto ages of ages. Amen.
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  #29  
Unread 13th May 2013, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by seashale76 View Post
I have an odd question- which likely shows my ignorance of Catholic liturgy. Is the Tridentine/Extraordinary form ever performed in English or the language of the people?
No, never. No translations have ever been approved or put into use.

Pope Pius XII thought very seriously about doing just that, but... then the war happened and he had other problems.
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Unread 13th May 2013, 01:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Cogent

Found it! Sorry it's not a direct/downloadable link, but I'm pretty sure this is the podcast I was listening to. I may have been a bit off in my recollection of the topic, as their discussion was more specific to people seeking out a more transcendent form of worship in Catholicism or Orthodoxy, etc but if I remember right the way their discussion ultimately went was that "people are seeking out more transcendent worship but maintaining their protestant doctrines".

WHI-1102 | The Worship Experience - White Horse Inn Blog

I'd take their theory farther and say that people are leaving Evangelicalism altogether for something with actual substance. I've spoken with a number of people over the last couple of years who were former Evangelicals but now attend Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran or Anglican parishes and their reasons for leaving Evangelicalism were all more or less the same: over the last decade the Evangelical style of church had devolved into a side show.

Yeah, that's a good point.

That's not to say there's no objective truth though, right? I mean I'm still having trouble seeing the merit in Evangelicalism because of the horribly flawed theology... that's me though.
Objective truth is that the Eucharist is what make Mass inherently Mass. But there are contemporary evangelical-style Anglicans who celebrate the Eucharist every service as well. So, in that sense, a contemporary service could be a Mass too.
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