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  #81  
Unread 5th May 2013, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Apologetic_Warrior View Post
Francis who?
You know, Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D. the Director of the National Institutes of Health and who served as director of the National Human Genome Research Institute from 1993-2008. Who was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom in November 2007, and received the National Medal of Science in 2009. He is also a Christian and author of The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief.

Originally Posted by Apologetic_Warrior View Post
I would agree the Creation account is an historical narrative, rather than Hebrew poetry.
Which creation account; the Priestly creation account is best described as 'elevated prose' as Gordon Wenham suggests. The Yahwistic account is prose, but this says nothing about it being 'historical narrative'. Peter Enns has some great analysis here.
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  #82  
Unread 5th May 2013, 03:03 PM
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Oh, look, the documentary hypothesis. People still believe that?

ASA - October 2002: higher criticism
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  #83  
Unread 5th May 2013, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by janxharris View Post
If it is a salvific term, why weren't all saved? Are you suggesting Ishmael and all of his offspring were damned? Ishmael was blessed.
All who are reckoned Abraham's offspring by the promise are saved.

Originally Posted by janxharris View Post
No, 'prepared for destruction' is not clear-cut damnation. Damnation comes to those that willfully reject God.

Your interpretation of these scriptures throws up the awful prospect of God unconditionally damning and you have said that God foreordains everything.
So, in other words, because !Predestination, !Interpretation supporting predestination. That's eisegesis.



Originally Posted by janxharris View Post
What of these scriptures?
Does it really need to be stated out loud that being the people of God, being the remnant who are saved, means to be the saints? They're talking about salvation.
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Is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more, praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul!

When Satan tempts me to despair and tells me of the guilt within,
Upward I look and see Him there who made an end of all my sin.
Because the sinless Saviour died my sinful soul is counted free.
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  #84  
Unread 5th May 2013, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Iosias View Post
Originally Posted by Clare73 View Post

Same old same old. . ."Hath God said?"
No, deal with the argument. I am laying out an argument using evidence assessing the composition of Gen. 2-3.

Do you agree that there is a great deal of similarity in the way that the story of Israel is presented in the Deuteronomistic History and how the story of Adam is presented in Gen. 2-3?
Nope. . .those supposed "similarities" show an ignorance of Scripture.

Israel's history as a nation can be broken down as follows:

1. Israel is “created” by God at the exodus through a cosmic battle (gods are defeated and the Red Sea is “divided”);
Israel was "created" without cosmic battle at Ge 32, 42-43, not at the Exodus.

2. The Israelites are given Canaan to inhabit, a lush land flowing with milk and honey;
The Israelites had to take Canaan in bloody battle in order to inhabit it.

3. They remain in the land as long as they obey the Mosaic law;
They were not expelled from the land upon their disobedience, nor after their first warning regarding their disobedience.

4. They persist in a pattern of disobedience and are exiled to Babylon.
Israel was in violation of the covenant for at least 300 years before being exiled to Babylon.

Israel’s history parallels Adam’s drama in Genesis:
1. Adam is created in Genesis 2 after the taming of chaos in Genesis 1;
Adam did not exist prior to God's forming him from dust in Ge 2, whereas
Israel existed over 400 years before the Exodus.

2. Adam is placed in a lush garden;
Adam did not have to take the garden in bloody battle, as Israel had to take Canaan.

3. Law (not to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil) is
given as a stipulation for remaining in the garden;
"Thou shalt not eat of it" was not stated as a stipulation for remaining in the garden,
but as a stipulation for retaining eternal life.

Exile from the garden was the result of his loss of eternal life, verified in his loss of physical life.

4. Adam and Eve disobey and are exiled.
Adam is exiled immediately upon disobedience, not 300 years later, as was Israel.

Your source is ignorant of the Scriptures and handles them very loosely.

Nor do you know Scripture well enough to evaluate what he says.

I suggest you get in a good Bible study and learn the Word of God.
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"Let not the wise man boast of his wisdom or the strong man boast of his strength or the rich man boast of his riches,
but let him who boasts boast in this: that he understands and knows me,
that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth,
for in these I delight,"

delcares the LORD.

Last edited by Clare73; 5th May 2013 at 08:10 PM.
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  #85  
Unread 5th May 2013, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by janxharris View Post
How does the word 'foreordination' remain unblunted in its meaning if there is a consideration of the deeds of men in what is decreed? If you edge towards the idea of foreknowing then you are approaching the Arminian position. In effect, foreordaining becomes post-ordaining.
As you already know Calvinists believe God is omniscient, which includes God foreknowing, which means we hold to foreknowledge. The difference is, we disagree as to foreknowledge being the grounds or basis of for election. I am no student of Greek, but I think "foreknow" can also mean "foreloved" in Greek. Of course the deeds of men are foreknown, and in the context of what you responded to, those deeds referred to, are the deeds of the unregenerate, which is not in the context of arminian foreseen faith involving salvation, the context is the responsibility of sinners for their sin! Why do you persist in responding with out of context comments?

Originally Posted by janxharris View Post
John Calvin makes no reference here to a consideration of the man himself. God compacted with Himself, says Mr. Calvin.
Here again, you quote John Calvin out of context. I am almost certain I have quoted John Calvin from his "Bondage and Liberation of the will" which clearly shows the unofficial compatibilist position he held, wherein man is responsible. As to the elect, God made no consideration of the man himself, salvation is by grace though faith that nobody can boast.
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"All truth is from God; and consequently, if wicked men have said anything that is true and just, we ought not to reject it, for it has come from God. Besides, all things are of God; and, therefore, why should it not be lawful to dedicate to his glory everything that can properly be employed for such a purpose?" - JOHN CALVIN

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  #86  
Unread 5th May 2013, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by janxharris View Post
It is astonishing that Luther held such views.

So, as an example (correct me if I am wrong), God foreordained Mr. A to eternal life, but Mr. B to eternal damnation. God did so without any consideration of Mr. A and Mr. B, that is, without consideration of how they would behave as people (good or bad). Mr. A was a ruthless, greedy man and drank to excess, but because God had foreordained that he would receive eternal life, God effected a complete turn around in his life. Mr. B was greedy and drank too (though he did do a lot of work for the poor) and because God had foreordained damnation, he remained a non-Christian.
It's not astonishing if you read his "Bondage of the Will". Luther's position may be even a little "stronger" than my own. Some hold to a single Predestination, others double, and some have made distinctions in the will of God, such as prescriptive, permissive, active, etc., whereby what God wills may come to pass via secondary causes permissvely so far as activity contrary to the nature of God is concerned. In short, some people hold double predestination as active/active concerning the activity of God, others active/passive (permissive). Personally, I think His prescriptive will, suggests a permissive will (to do otherwise).

Originally Posted by janxharris View Post
Though I don't agree with Roman Catholicism, I find Calvinism THE greatest threat to the Gospel.
Then unfortunately, I'd have to say you're also an enemy of Protestantism. Why? Because Arminianism would have never had the freedom of followers without the Reformation. If not for those before the Arminians, no Arminius, no Wesley, do you understand?

Originally Posted by janxharris View Post
It remains shocking that the author of Pilgrims Progress should write such this.
Nothing shocking about it, the puritan John Bunyan was a devout Calvinist.


Originally Posted by janxharris View Post
Not true. Romans 9 has God electing those whom He will work through. The electing is not unto salvation.
Prove it with Scripture janx, give me a quote from Roman 9. If election isn't to salvation, pray tell what is it unto?
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"All truth is from God; and consequently, if wicked men have said anything that is true and just, we ought not to reject it, for it has come from God. Besides, all things are of God; and, therefore, why should it not be lawful to dedicate to his glory everything that can properly be employed for such a purpose?" - JOHN CALVIN

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  #87  
Unread 6th May 2013, 01:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Apologetic_Warrior View Post
As you already know Calvinists believe God is omniscient, which includes God foreknowing, which means we hold to foreknowledge. The difference is, we disagree as to foreknowledge being the grounds or basis of for election. I am no student of Greek, but I think "foreknow" can also mean "foreloved" in Greek. Of course the deeds of men are foreknown, and in the context of what you responded to, those deeds referred to, are the deeds of the unregenerate, which is not in the context of arminian foreseen faith involving salvation, the context is the responsibility of sinners for their sin! Why do you persist in responding with out of context comments?
If God has foreordained every event what is left to foreknow?
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Unread 6th May 2013, 01:51 AM
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Why do you ask "what is left to foreknow?" as if the pot of things which are foreknowable shrinks every time something is assigned to foreordination? These are not mutually exclusive principles.
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Upward I look and see Him there who made an end of all my sin.
Because the sinless Saviour died my sinful soul is counted free.
For God the just is satisfied to look on Him and pardon me.
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Unread 6th May 2013, 01:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Apologetic_Warrior View Post
It's not astonishing if you read his "Bondage of the Will". Luther's position may be even a little "stronger" than my own. Some hold to a single Predestination, others double, and some have made distinctions in the will of God, such as prescriptive, permissive, active, etc., whereby what God wills may come to pass via secondary causes permissvely so far as activity contrary to the nature of God is concerned. In short, some people hold double predestination as active/active concerning the activity of God, others active/passive (permissive). Personally, I think His prescriptive will, suggests a permissive will (to do otherwise).
I thought you would have corrected my Mr. A and B story. You didn't.

I am baffled by your answer.


Then unfortunately, I'd have to say you're also an enemy of Protestantism. Why? Because Arminianism would have never had the freedom of followers without the Reformation. If not for those before the Arminians, no Arminius, no Wesley, do you understand?
I think the Reformation was necessary to correct the errors of RC.


Prove it with Scripture janx, give me a quote from Roman 9. If election isn't to salvation, pray tell what is it unto?
Romans 9 talks about God choosing whom He will work through. The word 'salvation' is not in the chapter, so it must be you that has to prove your assertion. I am merely stating what is plainly in the text.
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Unread 6th May 2013, 01:59 AM
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Originally Posted by janxharris View Post
Romans 9 talks about God choosing whom He will work through. The word 'salvation' is not in the chapter, so it must be you that has to prove your assertion.
Things Romans 9 says about the elect:

They are Abraham's Children (7)
They receive God's mercy (23)
They are God's Children (24)
They will be saved (27) (It's pretty pedantic to say the word "salvation" isn't in this chapter)
They obtained righteousness (30)
__________________
My sin, oh, the bliss of this glorious thought! My sin, not in part but the whole,
Is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more, praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul!

When Satan tempts me to despair and tells me of the guilt within,
Upward I look and see Him there who made an end of all my sin.
Because the sinless Saviour died my sinful soul is counted free.
For God the just is satisfied to look on Him and pardon me.
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