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  #331  
Unread 16th May 2013, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by KatherineS View Post
true.


Which is how women were ordained as deacons in the early church



A place. Not the primary place, and particularly not in the early Church. Even the later church. Remember the sermon was an optional part of the Mass until Vatican II. One of the demands of Luther was that there be sermons at Mass.

So we have the deacon Phoebe. May she and all holy deacons pray for us from heaven.

There is no evidence that women were ordained. Deaconesses were, usually, from what I've read, the spouses of the deacons.

There's a difference between a sermon, and a homily. A sermon uses scripture to make a point. A homily applies scripture to our daily lives.

A sermon takes a premise and then applies Scripture to support it. A homily takes Scripture, and applies it to life. You may not consider it primary, but that doesn't make it not so.

The Council of Chalcedon, held in the year 451, legislated that women could become deaconesses at the age of 40. A deaconess was to devote herself to the care of sick and poor women; she was present at the interviews of women with bishops, priests, or male deacons (so that the clergy wouldn’t be alone with strange women) and kept order in the women’s part of the church. Her most important function was the assistance at the baptism of women. For the first five centuries of the Church, people were baptized naked, and so, for the sake of propriety, male deacons couldn’t baptize women. When adult baptism became rare and was eventually replaced by infant baptism, he office of deaconess declined in importance. The office was actually abolished by the Council of Epaon in the year 517, but in the Nestorian Christian communities in Syria, and later in India and China, deaconesses administered Holy Communion to women and read the scriptures in public.

Read more: A deacon named Phoebe - The Deacon's Bench
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  #332  
Unread 16th May 2013, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by KatherineS View Post
I don't suppose you can cite a magisterial document that definatively addresses diaconal ordination on this?
In 1976, the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith discussed the issue of the ordination of women and issued a Declaration on the Question of the Admission of Women to the Ministerial Priesthood which concluded that for various doctrinal, theological, and historical reasons, the church "... does not consider herself authorized to admit women to priestly ordination." The most important reasons stated were first, the church's determination to remain faithful to its constant tradition, second, its fidelity to Christ's will, and third, the idea of male representation due to the "sacramental nature" of the priesthood. In April 1976, the Pontifical Biblical Commission released a study examining the exclusion of women from the ministerial priesthood from a biblical perspective. They made the following points: "The masculine character of the hierarchical order which has structured the church since its beginning...seems attested to by scripture in an undeniable way." "As a matter of fact, we see in the Acts of the Apostles and the epistles that the first [Christian] communities were always directed by men exercising the apostolic power."[5] However, in the conclusion of the document, they write:
"It does not seem that the New Testament by itself alone will permit us to settle in a clear way and once and for all the problem of the possible accession of women to the presbyterate. However, some think that in the scriptures there are sufficient indications to exclude this possibility, considering that the sacraments of eucharist and reconciliation have a special link with the person of Christ and therefore with the male hierarchy, as borne out by the New Testament. Others, on the contrary, wonder if the church hierarchy, entrusted with the sacramental economy, would be able to entrust the ministries of eucharist and reconciliation to women in light of circumstances, without going against Christ's original intentions."[6] On these last three paragraphs, voting was held to determine the positions on these matters held by the various members of the Commission. On whether the New Testament settles, in a clear and final way, the question of whether women can be admitted to the presbyterate, they unanimously voted against the proposition (17–0); on the question of whether there are in the Scriptures sufficient indications to exclude the possibility of women priests, they voted against the proposition (12–5); and on the question of whether the Church would be able to entrust the ministries of the Eucharist and Reconciliation to women, without going against Christ's original intentions, they voted in favor (12–5).[7] None of these votes had even the slightest doctrinal weight.
The Church has issued a number of documents stressing that priestly ordination for women is impossible.[8] In 1994, Pope John Paul II declared the question closed in his letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, stating: "Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance…I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful."[9] However, the Church has not so far addressed the problems which intersex individuals pose to its theological position.[10]
In 1995, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith issued a clarification, explaining that Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, though "itself not infallible, witnesses to the infallibility of the teaching of a doctrine already possessed by the Church.... This doctrine belongs to the deposit of the faith of the Church. The definitive and infallible nature of this teaching of the Church did not arise with the publication of the Letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis".[11] Instead, it was "founded on the written Word of God, and from the beginning constantly preserved and applied in the tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary and universal magisterium," and for these reasons it "requires definitive assent."[12]
The Church teaching on the restriction of its ordination to men is that masculinity was integral to the personhood of both Jesus and the men he called as apostles.[13] The Roman Catholic Church sees maleness and femaleness as two different ways of expressing common humanity.[14] Despite the common academic phrase "gender roles", which implies that the phenomenon of the sexes is a mere surface phenomenon, an accident, the Roman Catholic Church teaches that there is an ontological (essential) difference between humanity expressed as male humanity and humanity expressed as female humanity.[15] While many functions are interchangeable between men and women, some are not, because maleness and femaleness are not interchangeable. Just as water is necessary for a valid baptism, and wheaten bread and grape wine are necessary for a valid Eucharist (not because of their superiority over other materials, but because they are what Jesus used or authorized).[16]
Pope John Paul II, in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, explained the Roman Catholic understanding that the priesthood is a special role specially set out by Jesus when he chose twelve men out of his group of male and female followers. John Paul notes that Jesus chose the Twelve (cf. Mk 3:13–14; Jn 6:70) after a night in prayer (cf. Lk 6:12) and that the Apostles themselves were careful in the choice of their successors. The priesthood is "specifically and intimately associated in the mission of the Incarnate Word himself (cf. Mt 10:1, 7–8; 28:16–20; Mk 3:13–16; 16:14–15)."
Pope Paul VI, quoted by Pope John Paul II in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, wrote, "The Church holds that it is not admissible to ordain women to the priesthood, for very fundamental reasons. These reasons include: the example recorded in the Sacred Scriptures of Christ choosing his Apostles only from among men; the constant practice of the Church, which has imitated Christ in choosing only men; and her living teaching authority which has consistently held that the exclusion of women from the priesthood is in accordance with God's plan for his Church."
“ But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence. ”
—1 Timothy 2:12 (Bible)
Concerning the "constant practice of the Church", in antiquity the Church Fathers Irenaeus,[17] Tertullian,[18] Hippolytus,[19] Epiphanius,[20] John Chrysostom,[21] and Augustine[22] all wrote that the ordination of women was impossible. The Council of Laodicea prohibited ordaining women to the Presbyterate, although the meaning of Canon 11 has long been disputed.[23] In the period between the Reformation and the Second Vatican Council, mainstream theologians continued to oppose the ordination of women, appealing to a mixture of scripture, Church tradition and natural law.[24]
The Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith issued and published on May 29, 2008, in the Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano, a decree signed by Cardinal William Levada, on the existing ban on women priests by asserting that women "priests" and the bishops who ordain them would be automatically excommunicated "lata sententia".[25][26]
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  #333  
Unread 16th May 2013, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Root of Jesse View Post
There is no evidence that women were ordained. Deaconesses were, usually, from what I've read, the spouses of the deacons.

There's a difference between a sermon, and a homily. A sermon uses scripture to make a point. A homily applies scripture to our daily lives.

A sermon takes a premise and then applies Scripture to support it. A homily takes Scripture, and applies it to life. You may not consider it primary, but that doesn't make it not so.

The Council of Chalcedon, held in the year 451, legislated that women could become deaconesses at the age of 40. A deaconess was to devote herself to the care of sick and poor women; she was present at the interviews of women with bishops, priests, or male deacons (so that the clergy wouldn’t be alone with strange women) and kept order in the women’s part of the church. Her most important function was the assistance at the baptism of women. For the first five centuries of the Church, people were baptized naked, and so, for the sake of propriety, male deacons couldn’t baptize women. When adult baptism became rare and was eventually replaced by infant baptism, he office of deaconess declined in importance. The office was actually abolished by the Council of Epaon in the year 517, but in the Nestorian Christian communities in Syria, and later in India and China, deaconesses administered Holy Communion to women and read the scriptures in public.

Read more: A deacon named Phoebe - The Deacon's Bench
Good post. Very informative. Thanks
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  #334  
Unread 17th May 2013, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by AvilaSurfer View Post
In 1976, the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith discussed the issue of the ordination of women and issued a Declaration on the Question of the Admission of Women to the Ministerial Priesthood which concluded that for various doctrinal, theological, and historical reasons, the church "... does not consider herself authorized to admit women to priestly ordination." ...]
Thank you for that informative citation about the priesthood. I guess I can take that as a concession that you cannot show me any similiar statement about the diaconate.
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  #335  
Unread 17th May 2013, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Root of Jesse View Post
There is no evidence that women were ordained.

There is tremendous evidence. We have the text of the rituals.


The Council of Chalcedon, held in the year 451, legislated that women could become deaconesses at the age of 40.
A deaconess was to devote herself to the care of sick and poor women;
And while a female deacon did that, a male deacon devoted himself to the care of sick and poor men. What is your point?
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  #336  
Unread 17th May 2013, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by KatherineS View Post
Thank you for that informative citation about the priesthood. I guess I can take that as a concession that you cannot show me any similiar statement about the diaconate.
Ordination. Holy Orders. Even the Catechism makes no distinction. There is no, has been no, and will be no valid Ordination of women. Period.
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  #337  
Unread 17th May 2013, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by AvilaSurfer View Post
Ordination. Holy Orders. Even the Catechism makes no distinction. There is no, has been no, and will be no valid Ordination of women. Period.

I asked you for a definative document on women in the diaconate and you cited a church document that speaks solely of PRIESTLY ordination. The authors of teh document felt the need to qualify the word "ordination" with "priestly." So you have failed to provide a church document on the ordination of women to the diaconate.
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  #338  
Unread 17th May 2013, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by AvilaSurfer View Post
Well, now at the risk of some disciplinary action, there are those who would say a refusal to follow the Magisterum and actively advocating against Church dogma, is a reason to say you're not really Catholic at all. The royal "you're" of course.
"Those" would be people who do not understand that one's conduct or beliefs has zero to do with whethere they are Catholic or not. If they are Baptised Catholic, they are Catholics for life or until they make a formal act of defection - which there is not even a current definition of.
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  #339  
Unread 17th May 2013, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by KatherineS View Post
There is tremendous evidence. We have the text of the rituals.


The Council of Chalcedon, held in the year 451, legislated that women could become deaconesses at the age of 40.

And while a female deacon did that, a male deacon devoted himself to the care of sick and poor men. What is your point?
Catholic rituals? Nope.

Chalcedon says that women could become deaconesses. IT doesn't say anything about ordaining them. A female deacon would be different from a deaconess...

The point is about ordination. If we had the same rites as back then, where women and men were baptized naked, and people needed others of like gender to maintain modesty, it might become necessary. And given the scandal of today's church, it may be necessary. But having deaconesses is different thing than ordaining women, which is the issue.
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Unread 17th May 2013, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by KatherineS View Post
I asked you for a definative document on women in the diaconate and you cited a church document that speaks solely of PRIESTLY ordination. The authors of teh document felt the need to qualify the word "ordination" with "priestly." So you have failed to provide a church document on the ordination of women to the diaconate.
The fact that only men are able to be ordained, and that deacons are ordained ministers, means that there will never be ordained women deacons.
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