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Unorthodox Doctrinal Discussion orthodox and unorthodox Christians only - A forum to discuss/debate theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity (eg. full preterism, unitarianism).

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  #1  
Unread 28th April 2013, 04:40 PM
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Jesus isn't eternal, he was created (Proverbs 8:22,30)

Taking into account where it mentions in 22 ''The Lord made me in the beginning of His way;before His works of old'' and in 24- ''When there were no depths, I was born'' and in 30- ''Then I was beside Him a master builder''. These scriptures prove that God and Jesus are separate, and Jesus even says it Himself, this scripture also backs up what is mentioned in Col 1:15...''He is the image or likeness of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation''. Do not these scriptures tell us that Jesus was created or born, so therefore dispel the Trinity theory that Jesus is God?
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  #2  
Unread 28th April 2013, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by yogosans14 View Post
Taking into account where it mentions in 22 ''The Lord made me in the beginning of His way;before His works of old'' and in 24- ''When there were no depths, I was born'' and in 30- ''Then I was beside Him a master builder''.
You are misinterpreting the whole chapter. Wisdom is introduced in the first verse ... she calls, she speaks and teaches .... We learn from wisdom which is personified in this whole chapter!
Verse 12 reiterates "I Wisdom ..."

Jesus was not created, He is the Creator! I recommend for you to attend a good teaching church for you to learn at least the basic fundamentals --geeeesshhh
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Unread 28th April 2013, 06:12 PM
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Jesus is the Alpha and Omega

If Jesus were created the statement is nonsense:

Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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Unread 28th April 2013, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by drstevej View Post
Jesus is the Alpha and Omega

If Jesus were created the statement is nonsense:

Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
ALPHA AND OMEGA

These are the names of the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet and are used as a title three times in the book of Revelation. The additional occurrence of this phrase in the King James rendering of Revelation 1:11, however, does not receive support from some of the oldest Greek manuscripts, including the Alexandrine, Sinaitic, and Codex Ephraemi rescriptus. It is, therefore, omitted in many modern translations.
While many commentators apply this title both to God and to Christ, a more careful examination of its use restricts its application to Jehovah God. The first verse of Revelation 1:1 shows that the revelation was given originally by God and through Jesus Christ, hence the one speaking (through an angelic representative) at times is God himself, and at other times it is Christ Jesus. (Re 22:8) Thus Revelation 1:8 (RS) says: “‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God [“Jehovah God,” NW], who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Although the preceding verse speaks of Christ Jesus, it is clear that in Re 1 verse 8 the application of the title is to “the Almighty” God. In this regard Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament (1974) observes: “It cannot be absolutely certain that the writer meant to refer to the Lord Jesus specifically here . . . There is no real incongruity in supposing, also, that the writer here meant to refer to God as such.”
The title occurs again at Revelation 21:6, and the following verse identifies the speaker by saying: “Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son.” Inasmuch as Jesus referred to those who are joint heirs with him in his Kingdom as “brothers,” not “sons,” the speaker must be Jesus’ heavenly Father, Jehovah God.—Mt 25:40; compare Heb 2:10-12.
The final occurrence of the title is at Revelation 22:13, which states: “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” It is evident that a number of persons are represented as speaking in this chapter of Revelation; Re 22 verses 8 and 9 show that the angel spoke to John, Re 22 verse 16 obviously applies to Jesus, the first part of Re 22 verse 17 is credited to “the spirit and the bride,” and the one speaking in the latter part of Re 22 verse 20 is manifestly John himself. “The Alpha and the Omega” of Re 22 verses 12-15, therefore, may properly be identified as the same one who bears the title in the other two occurrences: Jehovah God. The expression, “Look! I am coming quickly,” in Re 22 verse 12, does not require that these aforementioned verses apply to Jesus, inasmuch as God also speaks of himself as “coming” to execute judgment. (Compare Isa 26:21.) Malachi 3:1-6 speaks of a joint coming for judgment on the part of Jehovah and his “messenger of the covenant.”
The title “the Alpha and the Omega” carries the same thought as “the first and the last” and “the beginning and the end” when these terms are used with reference to Jehovah. Before him there was no Almighty God, and there will be none after him. He will bring to a successful conclusion the issue over Godship, forever vindicated as the one and only Almighty God.—Compare Isa 44:6.
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Unread 28th April 2013, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by yogosans14 View Post
ALPHA AND OMEGA

These are the names of the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet and are used as a title three times in the book of Revelation. The additional occurrence of this phrase in the King James rendering of Revelation 1:11, however, does not receive support from some of the oldest Greek manuscripts, including the Alexandrine, Sinaitic, and Codex Ephraemi rescriptus. It is, therefore, omitted in many modern translations.
While many commentators apply this title both to God and to Christ, a more careful examination of its use restricts its application to Jehovah God. The first verse of Revelation 1:1 shows that the revelation was given originally by God and through Jesus Christ, hence the one speaking (through an angelic representative) at times is God himself, and at other times it is Christ Jesus. (Re 22:8) Thus Revelation 1:8 (RS) says: “‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God [“Jehovah God,” NW], who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Although the preceding verse speaks of Christ Jesus, it is clear that in Re 1 verse 8 the application of the title is to “the Almighty” God. In this regard Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament (1974) observes: “It cannot be absolutely certain that the writer meant to refer to the Lord Jesus specifically here . . . There is no real incongruity in supposing, also, that the writer here meant to refer to God as such.”
The title occurs again at Revelation 21:6, and the following verse identifies the speaker by saying: “Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son.” Inasmuch as Jesus referred to those who are joint heirs with him in his Kingdom as “brothers,” not “sons,” the speaker must be Jesus’ heavenly Father, Jehovah God.—Mt 25:40; compare Heb 2:10-12.
The final occurrence of the title is at Revelation 22:13, which states: “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” It is evident that a number of persons are represented as speaking in this chapter of Revelation; Re 22 verses 8 and 9 show that the angel spoke to John, Re 22 verse 16 obviously applies to Jesus, the first part of Re 22 verse 17 is credited to “the spirit and the bride,” and the one speaking in the latter part of Re 22 verse 20 is manifestly John himself. “The Alpha and the Omega” of Re 22 verses 12-15, therefore, may properly be identified as the same one who bears the title in the other two occurrences: Jehovah God. The expression, “Look! I am coming quickly,” in Re 22 verse 12, does not require that these aforementioned verses apply to Jesus, inasmuch as God also speaks of himself as “coming” to execute judgment. (Compare Isa 26:21.) Malachi 3:1-6 speaks of a joint coming for judgment on the part of Jehovah and his “messenger of the covenant.”
The title “the Alpha and the Omega” carries the same thought as “the first and the last” and “the beginning and the end” when these terms are used with reference to Jehovah. Before him there was no Almighty God, and there will be none after him. He will bring to a successful conclusion the issue over Godship, forever vindicated as the one and only Almighty God.—Compare Isa 44:6.
You need to document your cut and pastes. In this case this is from BIBLIOTECA ONLINE Watchtower

Charles Taze Russell was not too swift at greek.

From my lectures on JWs (used with permission from me to me)

Rev. J. J. Ross, a Baptist pastor in Ontario, published a tract, “Some Facts about the Self Styled ‘Pastor’ Charles Russell” (1912) which questioned Russell’s credentials as a minister and his moral example: “By thousands he is believed to be a religious fakir of the worst style, who goes about like Simon Magus enriching himself at the expense of the ignorant.” Russell sued Ross for defamation.

A five hour cross examination of Russell proved Russell to be a perjurer regarding his knowledge of the Greek language, his credentials as a pastor, and the award of alimony to his wife in his divorce. For example:


Q: Do you know the Greek alphabet?
A: Oh yes.
Q: Can you tell the correct letters if you see them?
A: Some of them, I might make a mistake on some of them.
Q: Would you tell me the names of those on top of page 447?
A: Well, I don’t know that I would be able to.
Q: You can’t tell what those letters are?
A: My way... [interrupted]
Q: Are you familiar with the Greek language?
A: No.
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  #6  
Unread 28th April 2013, 08:16 PM
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Are you trying to tell us that Jesus created Himself before He existed?

Colossians 1
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Ephesians 5
23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
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Unread 28th April 2013, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Phoebe Ann View Post
Are you trying to tell us that Jesus created Himself before He existed?

Colossians 1
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Ephesians 5
23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
No Jehovah God created him!

15 He is the image+ of the invisible+ God, the firstborn+ of all creation; 16 because by means of him+ all [other]* things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities.+ All [other] things have been created through him+ and for him. 17

Jesus was Jehovahs master worker!
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Unread 28th April 2013, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by yogosans14 View Post

Jesus was Jehovahs master worker!
Kind of an administrative assistant, eh.

Arias tried this years ago "There is a time when Jesus was not." This is warmed over error.
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Unread 28th April 2013, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by yogosans14 Jesus was Jehovahs master worker!
Figures ... a Jehovah Witness, that explains the misinterpretation of scripture. Of course they believe that Jesus is Michael and therefore a created being. They do what He says, obedience is key with JW's, because they think you have to "earn" your salvation! But they do not understand that only God can remove the sins (past, present and future) of the world. You have to be omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent to do that. Angels do not have this power or knowledge, Jesus does because He is the Almighty God. Jehovah is a made up name from YHWH. Masorites added vowels a thousand years ago taken from Adonai and inserted them. Yaweh is more likely, yet Yeshua (Jesus) is the name that every knee will bow: "so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth." Phil 2:10
Charles Taze Russell came out of the Seventh Day Adventist church and went rogue. They tried to get acceptance as a denomination but were rejected because of their many false doctrines -so they segregated themselves from the body of Christ, changing doctrines and finally it was Fredrick Franz who translated the New World Translation in the 50's, the only bible that has ever been translated to conform to the beliefs of the JW's. Fredreick only had two years of Greek and in a court of law could not translate one Hebrew verse.
It's also interesting that it is a documented fact that they celebrated birthdays, holidays and wore crosses around their necks in the early 1900's.

I feel sorry for JW's, because they knock on doors for 200 million hours a year and the growth of their org is at a snails pace. 8 million in over hundred years is proof that God is not growing this organization. Proof lies in the fruit. Conversly, their was about 500 million Christians in 1900 and now 2.3 billion --that's growth. That's an example of God at work through his church (both Catholic and Prostestant). Are we to believe that after 2000 years only 8 million are actually saved and the rest of Christianity got it wrong, so God decided to send Charles Taze Russell to start the true church to set the course right? It's not even funny, it's sad.
Aside from all that, salvation is a free gift! You don't earn it by following a legalistic system. To think you must endure the Great Tribulation and then 1000 years before you can receive eternal life is Satan's lie. You can have it now. Our salvation is secure and sealed once we believe in Jesus.

Last edited by Ronald; 28th April 2013 at 09:52 PM.
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Unread 28th April 2013, 10:25 PM
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[
quote=yogosans14;62949580]
15 He is the image+ of the invisible+ God, the firstborn+ of all creation; 16 because by means of him+ all [other]* things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities.+ All [other] things have been created through him+ and for him. 17
This is an example of adding to the scripture what isn't there! The word "other" was added to the NWT. If you follow the context of the passage there is nothing other implied. All things were created by him and through him. If you follow through to verse 18, firstborn means "from the dead". "a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all [things] -- himself -- first,"Youngs literal translation
"For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross." vs.19,20
He was resurrected from the dead so we could be born again as we are when we believe. (John 3:3)
Another thing, do you really think that the world got it wrong about the cross? If you go to Greece, ask them what stauros means. All the crosses all over the planet ... Do you really think that the symbol of the cross , representing the most important event in history is wrong? They got it wrong? NO, you got it wrong, along with a lot of other things. I must stop here.
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