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Unread 27th April 2013, 07:53 PM
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On the Four Horns As Carpenters of Zechariah 1: 18-21

On the Four Horns As Carpenters of Zechariah 1: 18-21

"Then lifted I up mine eyes, and saw, and behold four horns.
19. And I said unto the angel that talked with me, What be these? And
he answered me, These are the horns which have scattered Judah,
Israel, and Jerusalem.
20.And the LORD shewed me four carpenters.
21.Then said I, What come these to do? And he spake, saying, These are
the horns which have scattered Judah, so that no man did lift up his
head: but these are come to fray them, to cast out the horns of the
Gentiles, which lifted up their horn over the land of Judah to scatter
it." Zechariah 1: 18-21

A horn is usually a nation, government or a people. These four
"carpenters" are the governments that have scattered the people of
God, here called Judah, Israel and Jerusalem, or those claiming to be
his people who are being scattered by these four horns as judgment.

But which timeline is involved here, and which governments are the
four carpenters?

Lets look at the Hebrew word translated as carpenters. Carpenters in
Zechariah 1: 20 is Strong's Exhaustive Concordance Number 2796,
charash, from 2790, a fabricator of any material, artificer,
craftsmen, maker, mason, workman."

But, again, these four "carpenters" are governments, and calling them
charash is metaphoric in some way.

Lets look at the Commentary of John Gill to get some idea of what the
traditional Christian Church's view of these four horns might have
been. In his commentary on Zechariah 1: 18, John Gill says "...Targum
interprets them of 'four kingdoms'; and which Kimchi and Abarbinel
understand of the four monarchies, Babylonian, Persian, Grecian, and
Roman;"

Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome are the four kingdoms in King
Nebuchadnezzar's dream of Daniel 2 which Daniel interpreted to be the
Babylonian, Persian, Greek and Roman empires (see Daniel 2: 32-45).

Traditional church doctrine tends to say that the four governments or
empires of Daniel 7 are exactly the same as the four in Daniel 2.
Daniel 7: 1-8 says "In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon
Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote
the dream, and told the sum of the matters.
2. Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold,
the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
3. And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
4. The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till
the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth,
and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to
it.
5. And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised
up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it
between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour
much flesh.
6. After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had
upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four
heads; and dominion was given to it.
7. After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast,
dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron
teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with
the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were
before it; and it had ten horns.
8. I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them
another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns
plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the
eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things."

The four governments of Daniel 7 are a quartet like the four in Daniel
2. But there is no reason in the text to see them as being the same
empires. If they are another set of four governments in a later time
line, they might have some similarity to the empires of Daniel 2, but
would not be the identical empires.

Remember that there were two major empires in the Mid-East before the
Babylonian empire. These were the Egyptian and Assyrian empires, both
of which interacted with the people of God. Likewise, we can find in
history a total of six major world empires after the Cross, to
parallel the six empires before the Cross, all of which interact with
the people of God, either physical Israel or Israel reborn in Christ
of the New Covenant.

In our own timeline, there have been four major world governments,
which interestingly match up with the descriptions in Daniel 7 of the
four beasts, the lion with eagle's wings which were plucked, the bear,
which devours or destroys much flesh, the leopard, and the fourth
beast, "...dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had
great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the
residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts."

There were two governments after the Cross which were Catholic, the
Holy Roman Empire and the Spanish Empire. The Spanish empire ran into the "Protestant winds" and Queen Elizabeth's Navy when it sent the Spanish Armada to defeat England, then rising as the Lion kingdom, the first
of the modern quartet.

The British Empire existed for a few centuries before the Russian Bear
Soviet Union empire begin to rise in 1917. Then, in a dialectic
collision Hitler's leopard empire rose up in the thirties to oppose
the Russian Bear, and we got World War II. And World War II was
important for the development of the fourth beast of Daniel 7 as a
world power or superpower, which is diverse from the others, and
dreadful and terrible.

The three world empires which defeated Nazi Germany, the leopard
kingdom, met in a historically important meeting in the persons of
Joseph Stalin, Franklin D. Roosevelt and Winston Churchill in February
1945 at Yalta. Yalta was the Crimean resort place. So we have the
Bear increasing in its power in 1945, while the British lion is still
a power but not increased. And the American power was increased to
soon become the full fledged fourth diverse beast, or world
superpower. In the period of about 1945 to 1948 important events in
history were the founding of the United Nations, as part of the fourth
beast, the creation of the American national security state by the
National Security Act of 1947, the bringing into the U.S. of former
Nazi intelligence operatives and scientists and finally, the creation
of the the little horn (Daniel 7: 8) state of Israel in 1948.

Revelation 6: 2-8 presents a metaphoric set of four horses and
horsemen, the white horse whose rider has a crown and goes out to
conquer, the red horse, whose rider takes peace for the earth, the
black horse whose rider holds a set of balances, and finally that
"pale" or chloros horse (green horse) whose rider is Death and Hell
followed after him. "And power was given unto them over the fourth
part of the earth, to kill with the sword, and with hunger,and with
death..."

The quartet of Revelation 6: 2-8 makes sense as being metaphoric
concepts of the same quartet of modern world governments as powers
interpreted to be the British lion, the Russian bear, the Nazi German
Third Reich, and America-United Nations as the fourth beast. Some
justification for this interpretation can be found in Revelation 13: 2
where the first beast is described as being like the leopard, bear and
lion.

The four horses of Revelation 6: 2-8 are also color coded, as the
white colonial power of the British empire, sort of civil and said to
have a man's heart in Daniel 7: 4. The red horse is the Soviet
Marxist system in the form of Bolshevism, but representing something
broader, which could include Transformational Marxism. The black
horse is fascism, in which big corporations and big banks rule through
a totalitarian government under their control. The pale horse, among
other things, represents the mixing of the white, red and black
horses, and don't forget that Death rides the pale horse and Hell
follows close behind him.

The four horns as the four carpenters of Zechariah 1: 18-21 are these
four horses of Revelation 6:2-8, which are world powers or governments
having incorporated some of the traits of the British, Soviet Union
and Nazi Germany empires of the recent past, especially of the
twentieth century period of about 1933 to 1948. The four carpenters
are represented by Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin - and Hitler - and
are also represented by the last four American presidents who have
traits of the white, red, black and pale horses of Revelation 6.

In history, since the important period of 1945-1948 these four
"horses" and riders have scattered God's people. During this period
of time, the falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3 and the leavening
of Luke 13: 18-21 gained momentum. The Christian II Timothy
Church, which is never able to come to the knowledge of the truth, and
resists the truth (II Timothy 3: 7-8) become more evident in this
period. The remnant, mentioned in Revelation 11: 13 and in Revelation
12: 17, having the testimony of Jesus Christ (Revelation 12: 17) are
literally scattered over the world. And as in Daniel 12: 7 the
spiritual and earthy power of the holy people are scattered, and the
power of the II Timothy church is diminished.

God's people have been scattered in the sense that their spiritual power
has been diminished since 1945-1948 because the worldly culture under
these world empires of Daniel 7 and Revelation 13: 1-2, as well as
from the four horses and riders of
Revelation 6 have become more hostile to the true Gospel. The II
Timothy church has incorporated some of this worldly culture into
itself.

Last edited by texian; 27th April 2013 at 08:03 PM.
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  #2  
Unread 28th April 2013, 10:23 AM
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Nice post ... you can see the four horns (which has many forms) in the form of rivers, where truth is crucified, or parts the one river out of Eden/pleasure into four, from a garden that is not enclosed. A truth happening in us, which all things without are a reflection of.

It's part of the repetitive pattern.
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Unread 29th April 2013, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by texian View Post
On the Four Horns As Carpenters of Zechariah 1: 18-21

"Then lifted I up mine eyes, and saw, and behold four horns.
19. And I said unto the angel that talked with me, What be these? And
he answered me, These are the horns which have scattered Judah,
Israel, and Jerusalem.
20.And the LORD shewed me four carpenters.
21.Then said I, What come these to do? And he spake, saying, These are
the horns which have scattered Judah, so that no man did lift up his
head: but these are come to fray them, to cast out the horns of the
Gentiles, which lifted up their horn over the land of Judah to scatter
it." Zechariah 1: 18-21

A horn is usually a nation, government or a people. These four
"carpenters" are the governments that have scattered the people of
God, here called Judah, Israel and Jerusalem, or those claiming to be
his people who are being scattered by these four horns as judgment.

But which timeline is involved here, and which governments are the
four carpenters?

Lets look at the Hebrew word translated as carpenters. Carpenters in
Zechariah 1: 20 is Strong's Exhaustive Concordance Number 2796,
charash, from 2790, a fabricator of any material, artificer,
craftsmen, maker, mason, workman."

But, again, these four "carpenters" are governments, and calling them
charash is metaphoric in some way.

Lets look at the Commentary of John Gill to get some idea of what the
traditional Christian Church's view of these four horns might have
been. In his commentary on Zechariah 1: 18, John Gill says "...Targum
interprets them of 'four kingdoms'; and which Kimchi and Abarbinel
understand of the four monarchies, Babylonian, Persian, Grecian, and
Roman;"...
John Gill is way off here! His commentary has some excellent points, but there are places where he takes the "typology" too far.

Here's the problem I see with that...

You have to make the scripture say what it doesn't say in Zechariah 1, and then IMPOSE this on Revelation.

Zechariah told you what the "four horns" are in Zehcariah 1:18, 19:
18 Then I lifted up my eyes and looked, and behold, there were four horns.
19 So I said to the angel who was speaking with me, “What are these?” And he answered me, “These are the horns which have scattered Judah, Israel and Jerusalem.”


The four horns do represent the kings/nations that God used to judge Israel and Judah...they were Assyria, Babylon, MedoPersia, and God is about to use Greece in this prophecy. it flows with Daniel 11 where Alexander The Great defeats the Persian Empire and then after he dies the Grecian Empire is divided up into four...that's Daniel 11!!!

As you read Zechariah and allow it to say what the symbols are this prophecy can be rightly rendered.

The prophecy here is where God is going to regather Israel and rebuild the temple. At the time of this prophecy Darius is king, so it is future to Zechariah, but to us this is the past, and fulfilled.

Zechariah 1 is historical fulfilled prophecy, and I believe it is error to impose it on Revelation and the horsemen there.
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Last edited by ebedmelech; 29th April 2013 at 12:27 PM. Reason: correction
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Unread 29th April 2013, 06:02 PM
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Joshua the high priest and Zerubabel are said to be the two anointed ones in Zechariah 4: 14. Zechariah 4: 2 and 4: 3 answers the question "What seest thou? by saying a candlestick was seen, with two olive trees beside it. Revelation 11: 4 says the two witnesses are two olive trees, and two candlesticks standing before God. Then Zechariah 4: 9-10 talks about the plummet in the hand of Zerubabel, and mentions the eyes of the Lord which run to and fro through the whole earth. Amos 7: 8 says "And the LORD said unto me, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A plumbline. Then said the Lord, Behold, I will set a plumbline in the midst of my people Israel: I will not again pass by them any more:"

The plumbline represents judgment. The plumbline in the hand of Zerubabel represents judgment. Revelation 11: 1, about measuring the temple of God, is about judgment on those claiming to be the people of God.

The eyes of the Lord running to and fro through the earth in Zechariah 4: 10 is explained more in II Chronicals 16:9: "For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth,
to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect
toward him."

Because Zechariah 3 and 4 do not say that Joshua the priest and Zerubabel are the two witnesses does not mean they are not the two witnesses in a very metaphoric way. In the series of metaphors of Revelation 11: 1-6 there are not many clues about what this all means. The measuring of the temple and the two olive trees and the two candlesticks are clues which point to specific Old Testament scriptures. Revelation 11: 7-8 on the two witnesses being killed by the beast from the bottomless pit, and that their dead bodies will lie in Sodom and Egypt may not be entirely metaphoric. It may turn out to be literal, though Sodom and Egypt are metaphors.

The two witness of Revelation 11 are not two literal men, even though Joshua and Zerababel represent the two witnesses in the language of metaphor. Without dealing with the language of metaphor in Revelation 11, the chapter will never be opened up, perhaps because it is not given for it to be opened up to those who claim all scripture must be literally interpreted.

I Corinthians 10: 11 says
"Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."

Zechariah 1: 18-21 is about a metaphoric concept called four horns and four carpenters. They are said to have scattered physical Israel - in the Old Covenant timeline. But six major empires that interact with the people of God run twice, before the Cross and after the Cross. After the Cross, the quartet is not Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome, but England, Russia, Nazi Germany and America-UN. Because Zechariah One was fulfilled in the rebuilding of the wall of Jerusalem and the Temple in the time at the end of the Babylonian captivity does not necessarily mean the prophecy cannot apply to the timeline after the cross. What scripture can be brought up to oppose Paul in I Corinthians 10: 11?




Last edited by texian; 29th April 2013 at 06:42 PM.
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Zechariah was not an Old Testament prophet who lived at a time before
the period when a remnant of Jews in the Babylonian Captivity began
to return to Jerusalem to rebuild the wall and the temple. His
prophecy, for example, in Zechariah 1: 18-21 on the four horns as
carpenters and in Zechariah 3 about Joshua the high priest as well as
chapter 4 on Zerubbabel, are not predictions that these leaders will
in the future rebuild the wall and the temple in Jerusalem. He lived
and wrote during the period of the rebuilding, and encouraged it. But
he saw spiritual implications for the future in the rebuilding. In
addition, his prophecies deal with a broader vision of Israel and look
to the future from his time. This is why some of the prophecy in
Zechariah can be applied to the very end times.

Link removed to meet the rules of this forum

"His prophetical career began in the second year of Darius, king of
Persia (B.C. 520), about sixteen years after the return of the first
company from their Babylonian exile. He was contemporary with Haggai
(Ezra 5:1).

Link removed

"He was a descendant, perhaps the grandson, of Iddo the priest (1:1) -
one of the family leaders who returned from the Captivity in Babylon
(Neh. 12:16)."

"The exiles who returned to their home in 536 B.C., under the edict of
Cyrus, were among the poorest Jewish captives. Some 50,000 returned to
Jerusalem under the direction of Zerubbabel and Joshua. They rapidly
rebuilt the altar and began the reconstruction of the Temple. However,
they soon began to feel apathy, due to the opposition of their
Samaritan neighbors, who obtained an order from the king of Persia to
halt the labors. For about twelve years the construction had been
blocked by discouragement and concern with other objectives. Zechariah
and Haggai urged the people to return to the LORD and his purpose of
restoring the ruined temple. Zechariah encouraged the people of GOD,
announced the day when the Messiah would reign from a restored temple,
in a restored city."

"Historical Setting: (IBD) The setting at the beginning of the Book is
the same as the setting of the Book of Haggai. The prophet Haggai
spoke directly to the issue of the rebuilding of the Temple,
encouraging those who returned from captivity in Babylon to finish the
task. Zechariah spoke to that issue as well, according to the Book of
Ezra (Ezra 5:1). But Zechariah wished to bring about a complete
spiritual renewal through faith and hope in GOD."

"Zechariah is also noted for his development of an
apocalyptic-prophetic style - highly symbolized and visionary language
concerning the events of the end-time. In this, his writing resembles
the Books of Daniel and revelation. The visions of lampstands and
olive trees, horsemen and chariots, measuring lines and horns place
him and these other two books in a class by themselves."

Link removed

"Zechariah was a prophet from 520 BC to 518 BC in Jerusalem, about
2500 years ago. During that era, many Jews were returning from the
Babylonian Captivity to rebuild Jerusalem and the Temple, which had
been destroyed by the Babylonians.

"Zechariah, the son of Iddo, was instrumental in inspiring his fellow
Jews to rebuild the Temple (see Ezra 6:14)."

"Zechariah began prophesying during the same year as the prophet
Haggai, in about 520 BC. Zechariah's prophecies came from visions that
showed God's power, God's judgment of sin, the importance of spiritual
strength, and the promise of things to come, including the promise of
the Messiah. "

Link also removed

"Zech. 1:1 indicates he was the son of Berechiah and the grandson of
Iddo. Iddo was one of the priests who returned to Jerusalem in the
group led by Zerubbabel (Neh. 12:4, 16; Ezra 5:1; 6:14). Zechariah was
also one of the ones who returned under Zerubbabel, and he was already
a priest at the time of the return (Neh. 12:16). It is also very
likely he was just a young man (Hebrew: na'ar) at this time (Zech.
2:4). He was likely born in Babylon, and perhaps had just become a
priest at the time the exiles returned to Jerusalem. "

"As was the case with Haggai, the primary concern of Zechariah was the
establishing of spiritual priorities in the life of the returned
community."

"Zechariah is the longest and most obscure of all the twelve minor
prophets" (Adam Clarke). "It is the most difficult of any of the OT
books to interpret" (Homer Hailey). Zechariah "is the most Messianic,
the most truly apocalyptic and eschatological, of all the writings of
the OT" (Robinson)."
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Unread 1st May 2013, 07:28 AM
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If you take away the dispensation, and the looking for something to come, you will find by Him, these truths happening in you, where his Son is being revealed.
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Unread 1st May 2013, 09:15 PM
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I don't get it!!! Zechariah is prophesying in the reign of Darius!!!

*Judah and Israel are both in captivity.

*The remnant remained in the land...that's read in Jeremiah who prophesied to "the remnant"...so rethink that one!!!

It's not in accord with the scriptural record.
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for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,

A Jew in the Spirit! and a member of the 144,000 sealed!!!
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  #8  
Unread 2nd May 2013, 08:09 AM
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Ezra 5: 1: "Then the prophets, Haggai the prophet, and Zechariah the son of Iddo, prophesied unto the Jews that were in Judah and Jerusalem in the name of the God of Israel, even unto them."

Nehemiah 12: 1, 16: "Now these are the priests and the Levites that went up with Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and Jeshua: Seraiah, Jeremiah, Ezra......Of Iddo, Zechariah; of Ginnethon, Meshullam;"

Nehemiah 12: 40-41: "So stood the two companies of them that gave thanks in the house of God, and I, and the half of the rulers with me:
41. And the priests; Eliakim, Maaseiah, Miniamin, Michaiah, Elioenai, Zechariah, and Hananiah, with trumpets;"

In Nehemiah 12: 1 "went up" means going to literal Jerusalem. The house of God in Nehemiah 12: 41 is the temple at Jerusalem.

Zechariah went with the group including Zerubbabel to Jerusalem from captivity in Babylon. Zechariah did not live and die prior to the rebuilding of the wall of Jerusalem and of the temple, which took some time. He lived also during the period of the rebuilding and encouraged it if not taking part in it.

The dialectic is almost always an argument against scripture to protect a relationship with something. The relationship can be a man-made theology which conflicts with scripture in some way..
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Unread 2nd May 2013, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by texian View Post
The dialectic is almost always an argument against scripture to protect a relationship with something. The relationship can be a man-made theology which conflicts with scripture in some way..
Without two opposing forces, nothing happens.

Both portions of the dialectic lead to the same place, which is the purpose of it, to bring a consensus, if there is no consensus the process does not end. This is in relation to self, which is the purpose of God, filling all things with himself.
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Unread 2nd May 2013, 07:08 PM
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The Lords 4 horns speak.

Revelation 9:13
And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

4 horns of His altar...

Exodus 27:2;"And thou shalt make the horns of it upon the four corners thereof: his horns shall be of the same: and thou shalt overlay it with brass."

The people would also suffer 4 sore judgments, and were scattered to the four corners; just as there are 4 directions from which the 4 winds do blow (like judgments)

4 angels, 4 corners, 4 winds (like spirits)

There are also 4 beasts in heaven, who speak and say "come and see" each in order showing the 4 horsemen (4 sore judgments).

1st seal, 1st beast, 1st horseman
2nd seal, 2nd beast, 2nd horseman
3rd seal, 3rd beast, 3rd horseman
4th seal, 4th beast, 4th horseman

What is interesting to note is the 4th horseman carries all the sore judgments of the previous 3= 4 sore judgments as the Lord also foretold of in Ezekiel. ( sword, famine, noisome beast, and pestilance)

What is also interesting to note is the 4th and final earthly beast would be made up of parts of all the previous 3 (lion, bear, leopard) combined= 4th and final earthly beast kingdom period.
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