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  #1  
Old 21st March 2013, 04:11 AM
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The Real Luther

Luther himself recognized the devastating effects of such admittedly insincere preaching: “The Gospel today finds adherents who are convinced that there is nothing except a doctrine that serves to fill their bellies and give free reign to all their impulses” (Werke, 33, p. 2, in ibid., p. 212).

As for his evangelical followers, Luther added that “they are seven times worse than they were before. After preaching our doctrine, men have given themselves over to stealing, lying, trickery, debauchery, drunkenness, and every kind of vice. We have expelled one devil (the papacy) and seven worse have entered.” (Werke, 28, p. 763, in ibid., p. 440).

“After we understood that good works were not necessary for justification, we became much more remiss and colder in the practice of good … And if we could return today to the prior state of things and if the doctrine that affirms the necessity of doing good works could be revived, our eagerness and promptness in doing good works would be quite different” (Werke, 27, p. 443, in ibid., p. 441).

All these insanities explain how Luther reached the frenzy of satanic pride, saying of himself: “Does this Luther seem to you an extravagant man? As for me, I think that he is God. Otherwise, how could his writings or his name have the power to transform beggars into lords, asses into doctors, swindlers into saints, and slime into pearls?” (Ed. Wittemberg, 1551, vol. 4, p. 378, in ibid., p. 190).

At other times, Luther’s opinion of himself was much more objective: “I am a man placed and involved in society, in dissolutions, carnal actions, negligence, and other wrongdoings, to which are added those of my office itself” (Briefe, Sendschreiben und Bedenken, 1, p 232, in ibid., p. 198). Excommunicated in Worms in 1521, Luther gave himself over to idleness and sloth.



(excerpted from: Luther Thought He Was Divine, by Professor Plinio C de Oliveira)
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  #2  
Old 21st March 2013, 04:16 AM
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I don't think Luther was fundamentally a bad man. He certainly had a head for theology, and some good intentions. Sadly, he got caught up in politics and no small amount of ego, I suspect.

If he had made a few (albeit significant) different decisions, there is every likelyhood that he would be a canonized Saint today, as have been many other reformers throughout the history of the Church.

Sadly, things went horribly, horribly awry.

Certainly a man worthy of our prayers, for both his good and bad qualities.
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Old 21st March 2013, 05:23 AM
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What's the deal with all these bash Luther threads; feeling threatened?
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Old 21st March 2013, 10:18 AM
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I just thought the article is interesting and is worth reading.
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Old 22nd March 2013, 07:35 AM
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The incitement to sin given in a letter to Melanchton ... is perhaps even more categorical : "Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice even more firmly in Christ..."

This doctrine is so bizarre that even Luther himself could scarcely believe in it :
"There is no religion in the whole world that teaches this doctrine of justification. I myself, even though I teach it publicly, have a GREAT difficulty in believing it privately." (4)


4. Werke XXV, p.330; Franca, p.158

(Excerpted from: Luther thought he was divine, by Professor Plinio C. de Oliveira)

Last edited by Lepanto; 22nd March 2013 at 07:46 AM.
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Old 22nd March 2013, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by MarkRohfrietsch View Post
What's the deal with all these bash Luther threads; feeling threatened?
Oh you know us Catholics^^

We get it from your side, too . So it's not all us, hee hee
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Old 22nd March 2013, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by MarkRohfrietsch View Post
What's the deal with all these bash Luther threads; feeling threatened?

No, we are not feeling threatened. I, for one, can not understand how someone can follow a man who could not even follow his own teachings.

Tell me, how much of what Martin Luther originally taught the Lutherans still believe? Does it depend on the Synod to which a Lutheran belongs?

Janice
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Old 22nd March 2013, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Lepanto View Post
The incitement to sin given in a letter to Melanchton ... is perhaps even more categorical : "Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice even more firmly in Christ..."

This doctrine is so bizarre that even Luther himself could scarcely believe in it :
"There is no religion in the whole world that teaches this doctrine of justification. I myself, even though I teach it publicly, have a GREAT difficulty in believing it privately." (4)

4. Werke XXV, p.330; Franca, p.158

(Excerpted from: Luther thought he was divine, by Professor Plinio C. de Oliveira)
To be honest, I believe that Martin Luther had a terribly advanced case of OCD and scrupulosity. I can totally relate to him as I suffer from a similar case of scrupulosity. Confession is pure torture for someone like me. Actually, all of the sacraments become occasions of terror as I wonder whether I've done it right for God to accept me or whether I'm unknowingly making a bad confession or eating and drinking to my own destruction. "I absolve you" and "given and shed for you for the forgiveness of sins" aren't words I take comfort in because I have doubts that the Word is "for me" (hope is lacking)...because I am scrupulous. Luther suffered this greatly. Just read up on what he did in confession and you'll see it. I know where he was, very well. I'm there all the freaking time.

Unfortunately medieval society tended to dismiss such folk as being willful and wicked, especially when they become troublesome due to their issues. I think that's what the carnal Medici Pope ("God gave Us the Papacy, We might as well enjoy it!") did when he wrote up the excommunication of Luther, who was hurting his money collection campaign selling corrupt indulgences.

I do believe that the whole affair could have been handled in a better way, but the medieval Church didn't know about scrupulosity and the underlying psychological causes thereof, so they just did what medieval folk did...they chalked it up to willful malice and tried to get rid of the "troublemaker."

As to Luther's "sin boldy and go to the cross and boldly confess it" was intended to knock Melanchthon out of his neurotic navel gazing asking whether he had "enough" faith in Christ to save. The point was that the facts of the Gospel are outside of one and that's where one is to look and trust for everything, especially cross.
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Old 22nd March 2013, 11:21 AM
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You can proof text anyone to make them look bad.

I could find plenty of examples of saints complaining that their flocks or other Christians were going out and doing bad things, despite being taught well, for example.
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Old 22nd March 2013, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by catholicbybirth View Post

No, we are not feeling threatened. I, for one, can not understand how someone can follow a man who could not even follow his own teachings.

Tell me, how much of what Martin Luther originally taught the Lutherans still believe? Does it depend on the Synod to which a Lutheran belongs?

Janice
I don't think you understand what Lutherans are or what they, varried as their beliefs may be, believe about Mr Luther.
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