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  #71  
Unread 7th February 2013, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Standing Up View Post
Mt 26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.
v 21 And as they did eat.
Indeed. Nonetheless, as said before, if you read the Book of John, John 18 says plainly that after his arrest, the next morning it says this: "Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled ; but that they might eat the passover. "


Consequently, because of these discrepancies we can't say for sure if he did eat of the Passover lamb that Passover. That he ate a meal is not in denial - but as it concerns specifically eating a Passover Lamb...that's another issue.

Matthew 26:17 says: "On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, ‘Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?’ " The first three Gospels seem to indicate that Jesus and his disciples ate the "Last Supper" meal on the evening beginning Nisan 15. And that is when the Jews would have been eating their Passover meal—on the beginning of the first day of Unleavened Bread. (See also Mark 14:12-16 and Luke 22:1, 7-8.)

As another noted wisely on the issue:
The time of the traditional eating of the Jewish Passover—on the evening of the beginning of the first day of Unleavened Bread—occurred just as Jesus was being put in the tomb. Hence, the chronological question about Jesus’ eating the Last Supper remains. Various explanations have been offered to solve the puzzle, which are beyond the scope of this article to consider. The interested reader can peruse several commentaries, such as the Expositor’s Bible Commentary on Matthew, for a discussion of the strengths and weaknesses of the various solutions that have been put forth. The author of one such commentary on Matthew in the Tyndale New Testament series, R. T. France, presents a practical approach to the problem:
The simplest solution, and the one assumed in this commentary, is that Jesus, knowing that he would be dead before the regular time for the meal, deliberately held it in secret one day early. . . .Of course it was strictly incorrect to hold a "Passover" at any time other than the evening of Nisan 14/15 [that is, at the end of the 14th and beginning of the 15th], but Jesus was not one to be bound by formal regulations in an emergency situation! . . . .It was therefore a Passover meal in intention, but without a lamb [page 365]
This would mean that Jesus and the disciples, strictly speaking, did not eat the Passover meal at the Last Supper. It’s interesting that lamb is not mentioned as being part of the meal


Exodus 12:10 makes it clear that the Passover lamb was to be eaten on the night beginning the 15th of Nisan, roasted just after it had been slaughtered at twilight on the 14th. If any was left over until the morning, it was to be burned with fire. When John mentions in John 18:28 that the high priest and his officers avoided entering the Praetorium “so that they would not be defiled, but might eat the Passover”, it's difficult to see how he was making it unmistakeably clear that the actual Passover meal was not eaten by the rest of the Jewish nation until after Jesus had died. If it had actually been eaten the night before, all that would have been left by this time in the morning would have been ashes. As the Passover lambs were being slaughtered in the temple that afternoon, Jesus was “led like a lamb to the slaughter” (Isaiah 53:7), and as lambs’ blood was daubed on lintels and doorposts across the land, Jesus’ blood was staining the upright and cross-piece of the wooden cross. In fulfilment of that command to Moses in Egypt nearly fifteen hundred years earlier, the worthy Lamb, the firstborn Son of God Himself, was slain in order that God’s judgement of Death might ‘pass over’ those of us who shelter b

For other good places for review:

Of course, in what I'm saying, I'm not advocating that it was never the case that CHrist never ate a Passover Lamb in his entire life/tradition.
On a side note, for any thinking Christ wouldn't have eaten the Passover Lamb as intended more so because they feel Christ would never have eaten the Passover meal since He was a the sacrifical lamb, I think they can often forget that CHrist had already lived for a long time (33 years, although others have considered longer). In the time he had grown up, he already had a background of celebration of the Passover Feast....for as mentioned before, his parents were devout in celebrating it alongside Him.
Luke 2:37
When Joseph and Mary had done everything required by the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazareth. 40 And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him.

Every year his parents went to Jerusalem for the Feast of the Passover. 42 When he was twelve years old, they went up to the Feast, according to the custom.
In all of the years he grew up celebrating the Jewish customs/celebrations, it would not make logical sense to say that He (as the ultimate Sacrifice) would not have been up for eating a Passover Lamb .....and even in the possibility that he didn't eat Passover Lamb on the night before His betrayal, there is already a precedent for His doing so.

With Luke, when it comes to what Christ said in response to the disciples in their inquiry about how to get things ready for the Passover, the fact that he directed them to where to get supplies/material prepared is behind the reason of others noting that Christ (who honored the Feasts/what was commanded) was prepared to partake of the Passover Lamb. ...even though he'd not be able to partake of it.
Matthew 26:17
[ The Lord’s Supper ] On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?”
Matthew 26:16-18
Mark 14:12
[ The Lord’s Supper ] On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus’ disciples asked him, “Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?”
Mark 14:11-13
Luke 22:7-9Luke 22
Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. 8 Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, “Go and make preparations for us to eat the Passover.”

9 “Where do you want us to prepare for it?” they asked. 10 He replied, “As you enter the city, a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him to the house that he enters, 11 and say to the owner of the house, ‘The Teacher asks: Where is the guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?’ 12 He will show you a large upper room, all furnished. Make preparations there.”

13 They left and found things just as Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover.

14 When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. 15 And he said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16 For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God.”

Of course, from there, one must do examination of what Christ meant when he said that it was time for He/his disciples to eat the Passover meal (based on Exodus 12 ) and what it meant when the author of Luke noted plainly that the disciples had indeed prepared the Passover....and that Christ noted where He'd not eat it again (the Passover he eagerly desired) until the fulfillment of the Kingdom.

Deuteronomy 16 clarifies how God required the Passover to be observed, and specifically following the inauguration of the Tabernacle (and later the Temple). The commands throughout Deuteronomy 16 (as vs. Deuteronomy 16:6) for the Israelites to only offer their sacrifices at “the place which the LORD shall choose to place his name there” refer to the various locations throughout the centuries of the Tabernacle (and later the Temple). These commands gave rise to what became known as the three Pilgrim Festival seasons, where males from all over Israel were expected to attend three times per year (Deut 16:16) to make offerings of animal sacrifices and participate in the eating of the sacrifices (hence Feasts). Essentially, Deuteronomy 16:5 forbade the slaughtering of the lambs “within any of thy gates” which had been commanded from the Exodus until that time.

In regards to the Pilgrim feasts, this is something Christ would have known as one who adhered to the Law since He himself had that demonstrated in the life of his parents,
Luke 2: 41-43
41 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover.
42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.
43 And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned

[/quote]

Subsequent verses in Deuteronomy 16 show how the same principle about sacrificing only at the Tabernacle or Temple was equally applied to the other two pilgrim festival seasons of Pentecost and Tabernacles (including the Eighth Day).

In regards to the dynamic of how pilgrims handled Passover, I think it's reasonable what was stated in Expositor’s Bible Commentary on Mark 14:13-16 by Walter W. Wessel:
"13-16 Jesus gave explicit instructions to two of his disciples (v. 13). We know from Luke that the two were Peter and John (Luke 22:8). The "man carrying a jar of water" would easily be identified because customarily women, not men, carried water jars. He was to lead them to the house where the owner had a guest room (Mk 14:14). Jewish custom required that if a person had a room available, he must give it to any pilgrim who asked to stay in it, in order that he might have a place to celebrate the Passover (cf. SBK, 1:989). Mark seems to indicate that Jesus had made previous arrangements with the owner of the house. The upstairs room is described as "furnished and ready" (v. 15), i.e., with what was necessary for the celebration: table, couches, cushions, etc. The disciples would have to get the food and prepare it. This would include the unleavened bread, wine, bitter herbs, sauce haroset, and the lamb. The two disciples went into the city as instructed by Jesus, found everything as he had said, and made the necessary preparations (v. 16)".
The Old Testament Passover Lamb (Exodus 12:6) was sacrificed in the evening (specifically beyn ha arbayim - between the evenings) of the 14th day of the first month, toward the end of the day. Moses and the Children of Israel then ate the Passover lamb meal during the night of, the beginning of the 15th day of the first month, which is the First Day of Unleavened Bread.

But for others saying Christ did not eat the Old Testament Passover meal on the night he was betrayed since it was the beginning of the 14th day of the first month, in the upper room with His disciples....I think there can be validity in considering the possibility that the disciples/Christ ate in haste for one time ....eating the meal early on before the actual lamb was sacrificed. Granted, Christ was destined to be sacrificed as our Passover lamb on the afternoon before the Passover meal....but as He already had a precedent for doing things distinctively different at certain times...and He is the Boss.

Christ died on the 14th day of the first month, at the same time of day that the High Priest was sacrificing the Passover lamb in the Temple that year. Christ fulfilled the symbolism of the Passover lambs exactly by giving his life just as the unblemished Passover lambs began to be slain on the 14th of Nisan. As the Passover Lamb (Leviticus 23:5 and Exodus 12:6 ) was sacrificed on the 14th day of the first month, beyn ha arbayim, Christ also died, on the 14th day of the first month, beyn ha arbayim. The Apostles, along with the 1st Century Church , understood this truth, allowing that Paul could confidently write: Jesus Christ our Passover (lamb implied), is sacrificed for us (I Corinthians 5:7).

How that reconciles with the issue of Christ/his disciples already having a Passover Meal prepared/ready to go is something to wrestle with, IMHO. There was an excellent review on the subject that does raise some interesting points, as seen here in Did Jesus eat the Passover meal? - Bibles, Wheels and Brains
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  #72  
Unread 7th February 2013, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by netzarim View Post
I will not discuss this line of thought anymore. I have addressed this multiple times in this thread to my satisfaction, and we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Cleopas did not say "today is the third day" He said: τρίτην ταύτην ἡμέραν ἄγει - "third this day leads".

Was Cleopas infallible & was his count meant to be exact to the second?
Brings. But same difference.

Also, from is apo. Out from which. Here the count is exclusive. Had he wanted to mean inclusive, he'd have used ek (out from within).

So, again, even if we use your interpretation that they spoke on Saturday, that'd be the 3rd day.

Sat day 3
Fri day 2
Thurs day 1
Wed day 0 the out from betrayal, condemnation, crucifixion
Can't get to your Tuesday death from here.

Some, however, do argue for a Wednesday death, but they typically maintain the travelers to Emmaus spoke on Sunday. Thus-

Sun day 3
Sat day 2
Fri day 1
Thurs day 0 the out from betrayal, condemnation, crucifixion.
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  #73  
Unread 7th February 2013, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by netzarim View Post
Thanks for the support
Not a problem

Agreed, the disciples spoke with Messiah on Monday evening (Mar 26, 31a.d. on 13 Aviv) about eating the Passover meal. Though I believe then that they ate together the next day, Tuesday (Mar 27, 14 Aviv), before He was arrested and crucified. As I wrote previously:
The Last Supper happened on 14 Aviv (after sunset on Monday, Mar 26th, 31a.d.). The Synoptics called it the "first of unleavened bread", as "unleavened bread" was commonly synonymous with "Passover" (cf Josephus Anti 2:15:1 & Deu 16:1-3 - unleavened bread was eaten beginning on 14 Aviv!). John was simply much more precise, when he wrote "before the feast of passover".
Can definately see where you're coming from..
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  #74  
Unread 7th February 2013, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Standing Up View Post
But same difference.
I disagree with your conclusions, as I deny that Cleopas was infallible and exactly precise (not everything recorded in the canon is infallibly perfect, take for example Job's friends' words), I affirm Messiah's statements regarding 12 hours in a day, so I deny that 3 days and nights is anything less than 72 hours. I also deny that the count began on anything but Messiah's death (as He Himself affirmed), and thus I deny inclusive counting.

You deny Messiah's testimony that a day consists of 12 hours in order to allow for your system of inclusive counting. You denied Messiah's testimony that His death began the count of 3 days and nights to His resurrection. You affirm that Cleopas was infallible and precise.

Therefore, we have completely different assumptions & foundations on which to build upon, and so we cannot come to any agreement on the interpretation of the timeline.
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  #75  
Unread 7th February 2013, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by netzarim
Summary: Messiah died on Tuesday, and rose three full days and three full nights later on a Friday evening. The early believers gathered and worshipped on Friday evening after sunset or on Saturday morning - the Sabbath. Translators falsely changed "one of the Sabbaths" into "first [day] of the week aka Sunday".
Originally Posted by Gxg (G˛)
-snip-
Some factors I think make a difference is the time of the Last Supper.

In John 13, it mentions how they ate a meal just before the Passover Feast:Highly amazing that Christ would choose to sacrifice Himself knowing ahead of time what would happen...

Originally Posted by Standing Up
Except Luke says Jesus said, with desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you.

You may also consider that John helped Peter prepare that Passover meal; the same John who wrote John's gospel
Originally Posted by Gxg (G˛) Yep - although none of that has any bearing in showing that CHrist DID eat the Passover Meal. Saying one eagerly desires to eat of it isn't the same as saying that they ate of it - just like it is when a Father tells his children he has eagerly desired to share a meal with them and yet has events come up that prevent him from doing so
Originally Posted by Standing Up
Mt 26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.
v 21 And as they did eat.
Originally Posted by Gxg (G˛) View Post
Matthew 26:17 says: "On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, ‘Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?’ " The first three Gospels seem to indicate that Jesus and his disciples ate the "Last Supper" meal on the evening beginning Nisan 15. And that is when the Jews would have been eating their Passover meal—on the beginning of the first day of Unleavened Bread. (See also Mark 14:12-16 and Luke 22:1, 7-8.)

The Old Testament Passover Lamb (Exodus 12:6) was sacrificed in the evening (specifically beyn ha arbayim - between the evenings) of the 14th day of the first month, toward the end of the day. Moses and the Children of Israel then ate the Passover lamb meal during the night of, the beginning of the 15th day of the first month, which is the First Day of Unleavened Bread.

But for others saying Christ did not eat the Old Testament Passover meal on the night he was betrayed since it was the beginning of the 14th day of the first month, in the upper room with His disciples....
Why does Josephus say it was the 14th day of the 4th month concerning the divine destruction of Jerusalem and it's Temple in AD 70

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
"I consider the Prophecy relative to the destruction of the Jewish nation,
if there were nothing else to support Christianity, as absolutely irresistible." (Mr. Erskine's Speech, at the Trial of Williams, for publishing Paine's Age of Reason)

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ; and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah!

At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival. How suitable and how kind, then, was the prophetic admonition of our LORD, and how clearly he into futurity when he said "Let not them that are in the countries enter into Jerusalem." Luke xxi. 21.



This memorable siege terminated on the eighth day of the ninth month, A. D. 70 : its duration was nearly five months, the Romans having invested the city on the fourteenth day of the fourth month, preceeding.







.
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Having blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances that is against us, that was contrary to us.
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Therefore then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, and He in like manner did partake to the same.
That thru the death He might take-away the one having the power of the death, that is the Devil


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  #76  
Unread 7th February 2013, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus View Post



Why does Josephus say it was the 14th day of the 4th month concerning the divine destruction of Jerusalem and it's Temple in AD 70

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD



The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ; and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah!

At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival. How suitable and how kind, then, was the prophetic admonition of our LORD, and how clearly he into futurity when he said "Let not them that are in the countries enter into Jerusalem." Luke xxi. 21.



This memorable siege terminated on the eighth day of the ninth month, A. D. 70 : its duration was nearly five months, the Romans having invested the city on the fourteenth day of the fourth month, preceeding.








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Josephus is using Roman time----the 4th Roman month (April) would correspond to the 1st Jewish month (Nisan). The moon/sun cycle varies each year, repeating about each 19 years, so had Titus attacked, say 80ad, it could have been the 3rd month (March).

Or Josephus is saying Titus encompassed the city, seiged the city, destroyed the city, and destroyed the temple. Each thing was a separate event separated by months.
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Unread 7th February 2013, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Gxg (G˛) View Post
Indeed. Nonetheless, as said before, if you read the Book of John, John 18 says plainly that after his arrest, the next morning it says this: "Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled ; but that they might eat the passover. "


Consequently, because of these discrepancies we can't say for sure if he did eat of the Passover lamb that Passover. That he ate a meal is not in denial - but as it concerns specifically eating a Passover Lamb...that's another issue.-snip-
There's an explanation for the discrepancy, but it takes too much to explain it. Suffice to say, there's no discrepancy.

Thanks for the thoughts and links.
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Unread 7th February 2013, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by netzarim View Post
I disagree with your conclusions, as I deny that Cleopas was infallible and exactly precise (not everything recorded in the canon is infallibly perfect, take for example Job's friends' words), I affirm Messiah's statements regarding 12 hours in a day, so I deny that 3 days and nights is anything less than 72 hours. I also deny that the count began on anything but Messiah's death (as He Himself affirmed), and thus I deny inclusive counting.

You deny Messiah's testimony that a day consists of 12 hours in order to allow for your system of inclusive counting. You denied Messiah's testimony that His death began the count of 3 days and nights to His resurrection. You affirm that Cleopas was infallible and precise.

Therefore, we have completely different assumptions & foundations on which to build upon, and so we cannot come to any agreement on the interpretation of the timeline.
First, by saying I deny His supposed death to start the count is simply your ignoring of Him saying the count begins with His suffering.

Two, you do this because you've redefined how scripture, Jesus, at that time counted a day as sunset to sunset. To have His death at 3pm on Tuesday and then start to count the 3 days from Wednesday is nonsense. 12 hours in the day, at the time Christ said this, was near the Spring Equinox when the day and night hours were equal at 12 hours.

Three, Luke wrote with authority of the facts (Luke 1) so you might believe. Not be confused, thinking Cleopas and the translators don't know the differnece between Sabbath and the first day after the Sabbath (aka Sunday).

Yes, we disagree. C/U around.
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Unread 7th February 2013, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Standing Up View Post
... Yes, we disagree. C/U around.
I disagree with your assessment of my views. Bye
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Unread 7th February 2013, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Standing Up ... Yes, we disagree. C/U around.
Originally Posted by netzarim View Post
I disagree with your assessment of my views. Bye
So can ya'll kiss and make up



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Colossians 2:14
Having blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances that is against us, that was contrary to us.
And He hath taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
Hebrews 2:14
Therefore then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, and He in like manner did partake to the same.
That thru the death He might take-away the one having the power of the death, that is the Devil


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