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Unorthodox Doctrinal Discussion orthodox and unorthodox Christians only - A forum to discuss/debate theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity (eg. full preterism, unitarianism).

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  #1  
Unread 22nd January 2013, 03:00 PM
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Christ "Forgive them, for they know not what they do"

Anselm, the originator of the satisfaction/related tradition of theories of the Atonement, wrote in Cur Deus Homo that knowingly killing the Lord would have been a transcendental crime with which no others could be compared. Now if the Son of God could ask for people to be forgiven who were killing Him, and if He asked after their forgiveness despite their belief that He was not the Son of God (i.e. despite their unbelief), wouldn't it be peculiar for Him to not ask for other people to be forgiven their sins despite their unbelief, especially considering that no one else in all of history has had his or her unbelief serve as inspiration for murdering God Incarnate?

In other words, if the supreme sin possible (even if done out of ignorance) was able to be forgiven, and forgiven apart from any faith or for that matter any observable virtues whatsoever on the part of the sinners who committed it, why would any other sin merit perdition? Why would the least of all sins merit this?

Does Christ's request for His killers' pardon indicate that some people can be saved without having any faith in Him?
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Unread 22nd January 2013, 03:19 PM
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How do you reconcile "satisfaction theory" with Jesus being a "ransom" in Mark 10:45?

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Unread 22nd January 2013, 03:23 PM
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Those who think they are following God can still do things against God out of ignorance. God forgives ignorance, but not defiance.(blasphemy)
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Unread 22nd January 2013, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Ripheus27 View Post
Anselm, the originator of the satisfaction/related tradition of theories of the Atonement, wrote in Cur Deus Homo that knowingly killing the Lord would have been a transcendental crime with which no others could be compared. Now if the Son of God could ask for people to be forgiven who were killing Him, and if He asked after their forgiveness despite their belief that He was not the Son of God (i.e. despite their unbelief), wouldn't it be peculiar for Him to not ask for other people to be forgiven their sins despite their unbelief, especially considering that no one else in all of history has had his or her unbelief serve as inspiration for murdering God Incarnate?

In other words, if the supreme sin possible (even if done out of ignorance) was able to be forgiven, and forgiven apart from any faith or for that matter any observable virtues whatsoever on the part of the sinners who committed it, why would any other sin merit perdition? Why would the least of all sins merit this?

Does Christ's request for His killers' pardon indicate that some people can be saved without having any faith in Him?

Interesting question.

Is the request for Heavenly Father to forgive them of a salvic nature, or is it a matter of Jesus asking that the full fury of the Father's wrath not be unleashed upon them? Or could it be a matter of Jesus showing the ultimate degree of love by forgiving those who have wrongfully used him?


What a great topic.


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Unread 22nd January 2013, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Ripheus27 View Post

Does Christ's request for His killers' pardon indicate that some people can be saved without having any faith in Him?
I remember an apostle of Jesus himself who had to SEE to believe? We now know him as 'doubting Thomas'. Is 'seeing' faith?
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Unread 24th January 2013, 01:14 PM
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Question

Originally Posted by Ripheus27 View Post
Does Christ's request for His killers' pardon indicate that some people can be saved without having any faith in Him?
Does the pardoning (forgiveness) of Jesus' killers necessarily mean that they were "saved"? And from the Greek texts I've looked at, "Father forgive them" (Luke 23:34 KJV) is not the best way to read ΠΑΤΕΡ ΑΦΕΣ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ (cp. P75 (ca. 175-250 CE) to 01, 02, and 03 (ca. 350-499 CE, collectively)).
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Unread 24th January 2013, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Ripheus27 View Post
Does Christ's request for His killers' pardon indicate that some people can be saved without having any faith in Him?
Father forgive them (Pater, aphes autois). Second aorist active imperative of aphiēmi, with dative case. Some of the oldest and best documents do not contain this verse.

Luk 23:34 διαμεριζομενοι δε τα ϊματια αυτου εβαλον κληρον Codex Sinaiticus

Luk 23:34 And they parted his garment, and cast lots.

Mark says:
Mar 15:24
And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take.

Matthew says:
Mat 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
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1Ch 25:5 all these were sons of Heman the king’s seer in the words of God, to exalt his power;Hozeh ("seer") also means "to see" or "to perceive," but is also used in reference to musicians. It is also used to describe a counselor or an advisor to a king. The Hebrew does not necessarily indicate that the person is a prophet, but rather an advisor—someone who has wisdom.
It means "one who has insight." Hence, the essential meaning in Greek is "interpreter."
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Unread 24th January 2013, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by g_n_o_s_i_s View Post
How do you reconcile "satisfaction theory" with Jesus being a "ransom" in Mark 10:45?
Tsk, tsk. This is not a thread about satisfaction vs. ransom theories of the Atonement, m'lord. I wasn't citing Anselm to defend his overall theory, just to note someone's opinion about the magnitude of evil involved in killing the Son of God. But even if this thread were about what you seem to think it is, I would answer your question by observing that parables abound in the Gospels especially, wherefore it is no entirely straightforward thing to make sense of all the various words used to describe the meaning of the Crucifixion in the Atonement. And as such obliquity is the case, whether the concept of a ransom may be rightly squared with the concept of Anselmian satisfaction is by no means clear to me.
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Unread 24th January 2013, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Heterodoxus View Post
Does the pardoning (forgiveness) of Jesus' killers necessarily mean that they were "saved"? And from the Greek texts I've looked at, "Father forgive them" (Luke 23:34 KJV) is not the best way to read ΠΑΤΕΡ ΑΦΕΣ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ (cp. P75 (ca. 175-250 CE) to 01, 02, and 03 (ca. 350-499 CE, collectively)).
Well, Christ would've been speaking in Aramaic originally, wouldn't He? So who knows what He really said. I'm just going with the classical translation of the passage. I know that salvation doesn't relate to something so convoluted as faith in an interpretation of an ancient statement that was itself transcribed rather less than firsthand.

As for salvation going along with forgiveness, well, if it's not our sins that stand in the way of our salvation, then what does? And if God Incarnate would forgive the most heinous sin possible, directed directly at Him, even when the sinners didn't confess Him as Lord, why wouldn't He forgive other, lesser sins, whose offensiveness to Him is not so direct? (I would cite, for instance, an infidel college student cheating on a test: even if this sin can be plausibly interpreted as somehow offending God personally, why would God forgive His very own murder by Rome's hands, but not the student's cheating, regardless of the fact that Rome and the student did not confess that Christ is the Lord?)

Also, if Christ knew that His killers were otherwise damned, what difference would it have made to forgive them for killing Him? Why go through the trouble?
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Unread 24th January 2013, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Phantasman View Post
Those who think they are following God can still do things against God out of ignorance. God forgives ignorance, but not defiance.(blasphemy)
So an atheist who has not been provided with sufficient evidence for God's existence will be forgiven his or her atheism? (You might reply: "But natural reason is sufficient evidence for theism, wherefore atheists are without excuse." But though you might reply in this way, do know that I will mayhap entirely disagree with you, on anecdotal grounds alone if necessary (i.e. when I was an unbeliever, it was precisely because I, entirely conscientiously as far as I can remember, saw the reality of the Lord as unproven to me, even by natural reason).)
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