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  #41  
Old 24th March 2013, 02:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Douger View Post
What could the CSA realistically have done to help France against Prussia? CSA had a small and extremely war weary population, and this was full scale European war we're talking about (Franco-Prussian War).
Interestingly enough, even if the CSA may've been small, it could've offered the opportunity for others to flee for refuge and be a "neutral" zone.
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  #42  
Old 24th March 2013, 02:50 AM
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Originally Posted by lismore View Post
The French Empire and Napoleon 3rd may have been first to recognise the Confederacy, then perhaps they would have been friends and allies. Then during the Franco-Prussian War when France needed allies against the Prussians then the CSA may have helped France instead of watching from the sidelines like Britain and the USA. Therefore no German Empire, no World War One, No Nazis, No World War Two.

We got two World Wars because we were sleeping in 1871. Perhaps the CSA would have been more watchful.

It's interesting when considering the events happening around the world during the era of the Civil War - as a dear sister in Christ shared with me on how there were many from afar watching the war and seeing the implications of what'd happen in the future for all if one side won.


If interested, it may intrigue you reading this -- as it's in regards to the European view on the matter and the involvement in the US issue:ITt seems to go into more depth than other online sources on the matter.


Additionally, the book for the exhibit is available - as the friendship between Abraham Lincoln and Tsar Alexander, and the Tsar's view on slavery (likely related to the freeing of the Russian serfs) is well worth noting:









Tsar Alexander said that the Union was essential to maintaining the world balance of power. For in the eyes of the Tsar of Russia, the Union was an essential element in maintaining the world balance of power. And the Emperor made his views known through his foreign minister, Prince Gortchakoff:
This Union is not simply in our eyes an element essential to the universal political equilibrium. It constitutes, besides, a nation to which our august master and all Russia have pledged the most friendly interest; for the two countries, placed at the extremities of the two worlds, both in the ascending period of their development, appear called to a natural community of interests and of sympathies, of which they have already given mutual proofs to each other.



When the Trent affair broke out and Great Britain was preparing for war, he ordered his Pacific fleet to San Francisco and his Baltic fleet to New York.

It's interesting when considering the parallels on how the nation Lincoln was in unified by force while the one the Tsar had a revolution that splintered it not too long afterward/enabled for a Union of a different type to be developed with the Soviets...and seeing the history of both is a trip. In light of what happened with many blacks - specifically those in share cropping - turning to Communism as a means of social uplift ( more shared in #46 & #51 ) in light of how ending slavery with the Emancipation Proclamation meant little when they were collectively left in an oppressed state with Neo-slavery via economic neglect/inequality ...and not trusting in the promises of the North or South just like the people in the Russian Revolution did not trust in the Tsar of Russia, the ways things seem to mirror one another are interesting.

In the event that Lincoln had lost, I wonder if the Czar of Russia would've removed his support and eventually something else would've happened....or if history would've played out similarly as in our time when the freed serfs were not able to advance economically in society and they then chose to rebel even further to upset things.
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  #43  
Old 24th March 2013, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by I Eat Pie View Post
No it's not. Showing your body is a sin, but slavery is allowed according to the Bible.
The Mosaic laws described the treatment of prisoners of war and indentured servants, gave them rights, and required that their indentured service last no more than six years.
American slavery by no means followed the Mosaic law, to compare the two is wrong.
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  #44  
Old 24th March 2013, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Douger View Post
The Mosaic laws described the treatment of prisoners of war and indentured servants, gave them rights, and required that their indentured service last no more than six years.

American slavery by no means followed the Mosaic law, to compare the two is wrong.
If ever reading the Book of Amos, it was a text that involved a simple farmer being called of the Lord to challenge others in the body who had the resources to do something for justice/the oppressed—yet they did nothing ( Amos 5:21-24; Mic. 6:8; Is. 58:6-10 ). Many of them actually profiting off of the selling/exploitation of others sexually but not even thinking the Lord had issue.
Amos 2:6-7

Judgment on Israel

This is what the LORD says:

“For three sins of Israel, even for four, I will not relent. the needy for a pair of sandals. 7 They trample on the heads of the poor as on the dust of the ground and deny justice to the oppressed. Father and son use the same girl and so profane my holy name.
There are other scriptures on the issue which speak very forcefully on the subject of slavery/mistreatment of others (i.e.Exodus 22:22 , Deuteronomy 10:18 , Deuteronomy 24:17 , Isaiah 1:17 , Isaiah 1:16-18, Isaiah 10:1-3, Deuteronomy 27:18-20 , Psalm 68:5-6, Psalm 82:3 , etc. ). On slavery, the oppression of the Israelites under the Egyptians, and their deliverance from slavery by Yahweh, is perhaps the foundational story in the Hebrew Bible for why slavery is wrong.

Moses has a single message for the Pharaoh — set God’s people free.

However, Exodus also has slave laws, acknowledging the brutal treatment of most slaves and explaining how to care for fellow Hebrew slaves. Exodus 21 has particular instructions about the sale of family members and the penalty for abusing slaves. Moreover, the way the system was set up, it was more so in the sense of indentured servitude. Even with Paul, who often spoke on slavery, seemed to have this same perspective. For some scriptures, Revelations speaks heavily on that. For the book denounces the political and economic systems of the Roman Empire, and is particularly critical of the trade system that exploited the working poor and laborers. A list of luxury items sold by corrupt merchants ends with a ringing denunciation of the ancient slave trade: “No one buys their cargo anymore … slaves — and human lives” (Rev 18:11–13).

Slavery has ALWAYS been a significant problem for the Lord..and although he gave regulations on it, it was never something he was comfortable with. Of course, not all aspects of American slavery were automatically about cruelty nor was it the case that all aspects of Northern freedom really better than the South - and sometimes, in both, you'd see good and bad....
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  #45  
Old 24th March 2013, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Douger View Post
American slavery by no means followed the Mosaic law, to compare the two is wrong.
Perhaps it's possible that American slavery would've reached a climax at some point (if the South won) where they would be forced to go more so into a model of indentured servitute and contractors - as there's power in numbers.

Others have argued that slavery could've ended WITHOUT the Civil War. In example, there's one interesting book entitled Emancipating Slaves, Enslaving Free Men: A History of the American Civil War that went into a lot of depth on the matter. It's by one brilliant individual known as Jeffrey Rogers Hummel:
Many have argued that slavery had become economically doomed and soon would have been voluntarily ended by the South because of its unprofitability - and the author of the book noted how one difficulty in this argument was that no specific time was specified for this termination..as in the 1850s, Lincoln, George Tucker, and others did provide a time horizon of about 100 years, which, if accurate, poses some moral problems. ...and yet although the author believes that the economic argument is limited, he claims that slavery was “doomed politically” because of its accelerated decline in the border states and the expected (by him) repeal of the Fugitive Slave Law, which would raise the costs of enforcement in the South and allow more slaves to escape to the North. As he argues, “the peculiar institution’s final destruction within an independent cotton South was inevitable” (p. 353) - especially in light of how every other country in the Western Hemisphere that abolished slavery managed to do so without war. Hummel’s argument was that one can consistently hold views “passionately opposing slavery and simultaneously favoring secession” (p. 353) , implying a belief that more and more pressure could be placed on the South without provoking warfare. Hummel felt the cause of “the Civil War was the refusal of Lincoln and other northerners to honor the revolutionary right of self-determination” (more shared here).

I think it's plausible that the economics of slavery would have soon collapsed ( as steam is one thing, whereas cotton is another - and the cotton market would have eventually become unprofitable for the South, war or no war, thus eliminating the value of mass chattel slavery ). Environment wise, there were many dangers that an agriculturally based society had to deal with and the South seemed to be more vulnerable to caving in than the industrious North. The South already had it where the economy almost caved in once before - if recalling what went down during the Reconstruction-era South, as monoculture of cotton depleted the soil in many areas....and what happened later in the early 20th century showed the instability, when the boll weevil destroyed much of the cotton crop and planters and farm workers suffered. There were others thankfully who made a world of difference in preventing the economy from going under - as seen in what occurred with George Washington Carver's work on peanuts... intended to provide an alternative crop. George Washington Carver (one of my all time favorite heros in the faith) and his theories of crop rotation that sigle-handedly saved the agricultural economy of the SOuth (admist the Dust Bowl era when the Mid-West/Great Plains were being damaged ) and he revolutionized the Food Industry (more shared here in #20 / #54 ). Carver was born into slavery in Missouri, possibly in 1864 or 1865, though the exact date is not known. ..and his master, Moses Carver, was a German American immigrant who had purchased George's parents, Mary and Giles, from William P. McGinnis. Lincoln's Emancipation Decree freed the slaves living in the Southern States that had joined the Confederacy - but it did not apply to the slaves of whites in Missouri and other border states that remained in the Union but permitted slavery. And throughout the Civil war, area residents were prey to looting and killing by Confederate bushwackers, Union raiders, and ordinary outlaws taking advantage of the unsettled conditions - for there were differing factions in Missouri. When George was only a week old, George was kidnapped by night raiders from Arkansas - Confederate night-raiders and ....and they were later sold in Kansas. That background played a big role in his development and what he'd contribute later..

SLavery existing didn't keep away the fact that the Southern economy would face danger with the monocropping of cotton, a soil-depleting crop, and soil degradation. ...and George Washington Carver's crop rotation concept helped revive the southern soil, as Carver advocated that farmers alternate soil-depleting crops, such as cotton, with soil-enriching crops, such as peanuts, peas, soybeans, sweet potatoes, and pecans. Through this cycle the south underwent their own agricultural revolution that renewed their soil and in doing so their connection with the natural processes of the land. And it opened the door for Southern economy to thrive in differing ways. It's powerful seeing his impact being felt still everytime you go to the market and buy food products of certain kinds that he inspired/created. He was decades ahead of his time when it came to things such as ethanol based on corn syrup---and as he already revolutionized the agriculture of the South/saved it and even made inventions used in car doors via plants..industrial uses from agriculture and biotechnology.

The United Daughters of te Confederacy - a conservative white organization dedicated to the preservation of the memory of the role of the South during the Civil War - gave him a letter of interest and appreciation for the work he was doing ...although their reasons for endorsement were essentially a way in which SOuthern Whites could show the rest of the country that their system of racial segregation was not so bad..for they reasoned that if someone like Carver could succeed under it, it could not nearly be as bad as people believed. That Carver was humble/devout and not really vocal in condemning the actions of whites/Southern racial practices made it easy for him to be held up by them as a "credit to his race" ...and that all blacks could work hard enough to equals...but it was essentially a romanticized view of the South that'd lead to trying to co-opt the work of Carver and not really allow for blacks to be treated fairly while benefitting from their work. The NAACP was one of the few organizations to try and curb the ways many whites fought against blacks in being seen as equals - and without their prescence, even if slaves were eventually freed, blacks would not have had the advantage of being able to have a visible platform from which they could use education to show their equality.

THere's no way of knowing if the Southern economy would have been the same if the Confederacy had won since most people - be it black or white - had been agriculturally based /turned to farming for lifestyle...and being bent toward that meant you had to be innovative..so it's possible that another like a George Washington Carver would've rose up. However, without him having the opportunity for pursuing freedom/education like he did later on in life, he may've been hindered in the advancements he made - and thus, there would have been destruction on a higher scale.

There is the possibility that the instituition of slavery might have lingered on as a relic for some decades. For it must be remembered that the Southern Planter Class, though a small minority of the south's population, really were culturally attached to slavery. And they held the bulk of the wealth. After the cotton market collapsed, many ( maybe most ) would have been bankrupted...although property and industrial holdings would have kept some afloat and they would have retained enormous political clout. It is possible it may have been a slow, protracted affair, with states opting out under pressure one by one. There'd possibly be a few backwaters resisting change a little longer, with slaves continuing as household servants, dragging well into the 20th century.

And of course, there is the really terrifying ( but much less likely ) scenario of the South attempting to industrialize with a slave workforce. The large-scale use of slaves in an urban or industrial la- bor force was never a part of the antebellum South. Examples abound of failed private and public attempts in the South to deploy slave labor in jobs other than staple crop production -and as it is, slavery itself was keeping the SOuth poor compared to the North - as it prevented the growth of cities and manufacturers....and you could only exploit people for so long in order to have physical labor before the work force rebelled - as there were many slave rebellions rising up (Nat Turner being one of them amongst others that terrified whites). There was a realization - with slavery being abolished around the world - that the only way to keep their economy going would be more use of slave labor from other sources not dried up. And in defending slavery, the South would grow increasingly different from the dynamic, capitalist, free labor system that was gaining strength in the North.

If trying to catch up, there would have to be a change in the system by training others to all be skilled in trade..and using free labor/agragarian revolution that would not be bound on the social caste system of slavery. If trying to industralize with a slave labor force, I don't think this would have lasted ( as plenty of poor whites would want those jobs as the southern economy tanked, with the possible result of class warfare...and on that, perhaps the southern proletariat would have radicalized and we would have ended up with a Confederate SSR ), but it might have prolonged the process. Regardless of what might have happened, it is certain that southern victory would have set Civil Rights and race relations back decades, to the detriment of this country.
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Old 24th March 2013, 03:00 PM
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I don't think slavery would last long even if the South won... I know that some slaves were learning to read at the time, and education=freedom.
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Old 24th March 2013, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by I Eat Pie View Post
I don't think slavery would last long even if the South won... I know that some slaves were learning to read at the time, and education=freedom.
Indeed. There were many who were experiencing the power of education - Fredrick Douglass being one of them leading the way in that...and others who knew that they were able to come together/create a significant force to be reconked with. Slaves would only choose to remain slaves for so long - and as said earlier, there's a reason others were terrified of others like Nat Turner.




There's a reason Nat Turner's theology was the way it was (more here, here and here/here/here)....Numerous black slave rebellions and insurrections took place in North America during the seventeenth, eighteenth, and nineteenth centuries. There is documentary evidence of more than 250 uprisings or attempted uprisings involving 10 or more slaves. Three of the best known in the United States during the nineteenth century are the revolts by Gabriel Prosser in Virginia in 1800, Denmark Vesey in Charleston, South Carolina in 1822, and Nat Turner in Southampton County, Virginia, in 1831.

Again, if studying African-American History, one will quiclly recall many of the Slave Revolts that often happened-with ones like the Nat Turner slave rebellon being amongst the most famous since he was trying to get freedom at all costsand led a revolt in Virginia on August 21, 1831 that resulted in 56 deaths among their victims, the largest number of white fatalities to occur in one uprising in the antebellum southern United States. And there were others as well - some done by white men who wanted to help the blacks get freedom at all costs....like John Brown's rebellion and the deaths he caused. White abolitionist John Brown had already fought against pro-slavery forces in Kansas for several years when he decided to lead a raid on Harpers Ferry, Virginia (West Virginia was not yet a state). And this raid was a joint attack by former slaves, freed blacks, and white men who had corresponded with slaves on plantations in order to form a general uprising among slaves. It almost succeeded, had it not been for Brown's delay, and hundreds of slaves left their plantations to join Brown's force, and others left their plantations to join Brown in an escape to the mountains. Eventually, due to a tactical error by Brown, their force was quelled. Nonetheless, but directly following this, slave disobedience and the number of runaways increased markedly in Virginia.


Some would say that he was a terroristand yet, one can understand how he arrived at that point after seeing attrocities like the raping of their families, kidnapping, ruthless whippings and many other evils. We can condemn the man in hindsightbut if in the times, whose side would you be on? Though the slave masters were angry at the loss of life on their side, was it not something they already had a hand in because they already oppressed one group-and ironically, felt they were the freedom fighters because of how they as Americans (whites) fought for their independence from Britain?

Regardless, the point is that slavery was something many were realizing would HAVE to be changed at some point before things started to get out of hand further and attempts at suppression would lead to greater problems. Thus, even if slavery continued, it'd lead to other issues.
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What sorta issues? :p

And I read somewhere that some of the slave owners were black too. So maybe it was more about class than race.
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Old 24th March 2013, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by I Eat Pie View Post
What sorta issues? :p

And I read somewhere that some of the slave owners were black too. So maybe it was more about class than race.
Not certain what you mean by "What sorta issues?"...as I mentioned that the issue slavery continued would bring was a greater threat of more destruction and sabatogue via slave revolts and rebellions. Hope that made sense.

The issue of blacks owning slaves was discussed earlier - in the event it was missed ( #15 ):
Originally Posted by apache1 View Post
There were a sizeable number of Native Americans that fought for the South during the American Civil War. Will Thomas, a white man that was adopted by a Tsalagi (Cherokee) chief himself became principal chief of the Tsalagis of the Eastern Band of Cherokees in North Carolina, was in many ways as much a Tsalagi as a Native born one. He became a colonel for the Confederate Army in the Civil War and had a largely native outfit named Thomas Legion that fought (and beat) a Yankee force in the vicinity of Gatlinburg, Tenn. Also, in Oklahoma, another Tsalagi named Stand Watie was a brigadier General for the Confederate Army, and did not surrender to the Yankees til a full month after Lee surrendered at Appomattox. Also, many other Indian tribes and nations, especially in Oklahoma and Texas region, supported the South, including "Five Civilized Tribes" (Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw, Creek, and Seminole) and other Indians that had relocated or been removed from back East to Oklahoma, such as Shawnee, Sauk and Fox, etc., fought for South, as did some plains and southwest tribes (e.g. some Commanche and Kiowa and Apache did, though not as many). Also, some fought for North, including Ned Christie, a Cherokee gunfighter on par with Jesse James or Wyatt Earp. The way the Indians had been treated in past (Trail of Tears, etc.) they saw the "Greycoats" (Confederates) as an alternative to the "Bluecoats" (Union). There were of course other factors (some Oklahoma Indians had black slaves, though not a lot, many Indians that fought for Confederacy, as well as many whites, did not own slaves at all or even believe in it). Very complex time period.
Originally Posted by Gxg (G) View Post
Very good information that gives a different spin on things - and many thanks for sharing

What you mentioned with the Indians owning slaves is indeed very true and a part of history that's not remembered easily...even though it was radically different and mild compared to most of white ownership of slaves - and often brought critique from other white slave-owners (as William Katz notes best in his book "Black Indians: A Hidden Heritage" ). On the same token, the same thing goes for Blacks who owned slaves as well. A lot of people argued that others voluntarily made themselves as slaves - and that goes for even blacks owning slaves as well..
And with what the North allowed in Wage Slavery - regulating blacks to the slums/impoverishment while saying they were already "free" - was what they were doing worse than the South or the same?
Class made a big deal in things since many of the rich who were white did not want the lower-class whites to unite with blacks - and thus, they pitted them against one another in making the lower-class whites think that free blacks were going to steal their jobs...and caused them fight against one another. It's not to say that ethnicity/racism was not present - but there were other factors.
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Originally Posted by I Eat Pie View Post
What sorta issues? :p
With issues arising that occurred with slavery continuing, there's also the potential that the South - being less united than it would've been if joining with the North - would've become more open to attacks from around the world by other nations...as a unified country was key for advancement and keeping others at bay. As it concerns today, we'd certainly not have a larger FEDERAL Government as we do -and not many of the benefits we have, highways being one of them for the benefit of trade/supplying resources effeciently (more shared in #139 ).

For any time you have seccession, it seems to be a matter of Federalism vs Anti-Federalism. Some noted where the COnstitution seemed off and yet had differing reasons than others. The most famous examples being the Anti-Federalists who opposed ratification of the Constitution and were typified by the following:
  • A desire to establish aweak central government (as had been created by the Articles of Confederation)
  • A corresponding desire for strong state governments
  • The support of many small farmers and small landowners
  • The support of debtor elements who felt that strong state legislatures were more sympathetic to them than a strong central government.
Within the dyanmic of States arguing if they can seceede...you have communities within the states wondering if they have to do everything that their states demand/place up (in the event that they disagree with it). In example, states like Croatia seceded (legally, if I recall correctly). But this started a seccessionist movement within Croatia, with Serb-majority regions seeking to break away and rejoin Yugoslavia or some Greater Serb state. And with states seceeding, if those states allowed for slavery, you'd have the inevitable dynamic of suppressing communities who want to resist in the understanding that they don't agree with slavery/don't want to tolerate it. The end result is chaos/'Might Makes Right" - for inevitable questions to contend with are "What are the limits on secession? Do those who support secession for states similarly support secession for regions within states?" and "Where does the right to secede end? At the level of the state, the town, the neighbourhood, or even the individual household? Seeing how many communities within the U.S - be it with the American Indians throughout history or many black communities (especially those who were systematically terrorized by the government and at one point made RADICAL calls for seperation/black nationalism within the U.S) - there are many reasons why others did not trust any form of government...be it the larger federal government or, for that matter, government on the state level. So long, of course, as they were not truly represented and felt ousted.

One cannot simply focus on secessionism from the perspective of the State level since the concept goes far deeper when studying the history of the U.S and communities within states/what they chose to do.

Ultimately, it seems to come down to a battle between whether you have anarchy or not - anarcho capitalism or anarcho communism or something else within the world of anarchy. And as it stands, there are differing levels of anarchy that others have been willing to accept when not feeling that either the State or Federal government can truly represent what's best for the block. And for others, it'll always be a matter of HOME TOWN Security as opposed to Homeland security.
For others, when states succedd, the possible ideas for how to handle themselves are expressed in the form of local townships working with one another rather than a large state doing the same thing that other complained that the FEDS did in running their lives in ways they didn't like. One way of seeing it is communalism. In Africa, interestingly enough, the many cultures within it are very much for communalism and gravitate toward it/anything that seems similar to it since their culture was focused on living for the community/village ( more here and here / here).

Precolonial African societies were based on communalism. Communalism refers to strong allegiance limited to ones own ethnic group, commonly based on sharing history and culture, for instance. It is characterized by collective cooperation and ownership by members of a community.
Communalism is anything using communes as a basis of society. Communalism in that sense IS communism when it comes to having similar. Communism is based upon everyone receiving their fair share, and communalism is based upon a desire to give freely. When you have your ultimate communism society, people would likely have a seperation into local participatory communities, communes, and these communes would be federated together. Communes hardly have to be isolated, as your neighbor might be part of a different commune than you are and you don't dissasociate with him. He's simply not a general part of your own little direct democracy. There've been pitfalls to how things operate with communalism, such as what happens when people are so loyal to their own individual group/the views of its superiority that it cannot work with others---and this has happened often in Africa. Also in places throughout Asia when there's no sense of national identity, like in Singapore...
....And Nepal as well.

Because of the eternal battle of having a society that fights over the question of "WHO'S in CHARGE??!!", you'll never have a perfect system.

And even with Southern States succeeding in secession from the North, there'd be an eternal battle possibly over when the line ends on who can or cannot break away.
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