"Prędestinatio nihil est aliud quam pręscientia et pręparatio beneficiorum, quibus certissime liberantur [i.e. salvantur], quicunque liberantur" (Predestination is nothing else than the foreknowledge and foreordaining of those gracious gifts which make certain the salvation of all who are saved). - Augustine
Sadly, many Christians would rather learn their eschatology from the Left Behind series, than scholarly studies and exegesis of the Bible.
"What God requires of us he himself works in us, or it is not done. He that commands faith, holiness, and love, creates them by the power of his grace..." - Matthew Henry
"Do not think Christians are made by educationthey are made by creation. You may wash a corpse as long as ever you please, but you cannot wash life into it. You may deck it in flowers and robe it in scarlet and fine linen, but you cannot make it livethe vital spark must come from above." - Charles Spurgeon
yeppers, it is refreshing to see how many people have started to wake up to this. It is still frustrating however to actually have people question your faith when you doubt in the "secret pre-trib rapture theory"
__________________ Numbers 6:24-26 The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord make his face to shine upon you, and be gracious to you; the Lord lift up his countenance upon you, and give you peace.
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Okay, but thanks for the material. If at any time you wish to discuss this from scripture rather than offering copy and paste I will gladly look forward to it.
Probably the first issue to examine will be the position of the amillennialist itself, which overlooks the prophecy of scripture itself, which is a spiritualization of scripture that in my view leaves much from the table of study. It is no wonder this view has been so popular.
It should not fail our notice that those that oppose the pre-trib view usually to a man always resort to casting into doubt the salvation of those that embrace a pre-trib view.
Lastly (for now, as I am on a trip and responding from my phone (which is tortuous, lol)), let us consider the appeal to the historical view as being the correct one: does this not fly in the face of reformation theology? And if we consider the similarities we can find between Catholic and Protestant theology and practice would we not find they are far closer than those between the various groups which embrace a pre-trib view?
Think about that before offering a hasty response.
I have read the first of these links and have found it to be a poor opposition to the pre-trib view, mixing false information with true, and making the very mistake that the Reformers sought to correct, which... Reading scripture for ourselves rather than appealing to what men say. Because what men say will hold error, as seen in the link.
But God's word can be trusted.
So, brother JM, can you show from scripture itself, apart from your links, why we doubt the promises of God as found in His word.
If Church Tradition is so trustworthy...why is it the dating of Revelation after AD70 is rejected? Your entire theology stands or falls on that one issue.
Okay, thanks for the thread and the material. I will not in this thread seek your approval to respond, for this thread indicates you question the salvation of those that embrace a pre-trib view and actually charge them with embracing and teaching demon doctrine.
For shame, brother.
To date you are the first a millennialist I have run across to do this. So far it has only been those holding a post-trib view. But, as I said in the other thread, this issue reaches into areas of Theology which will cause us to do more than scratch the surface of the word of God, and while most may not change their view (at least not publicly)...they will be forced to examine the basis of their belief, and will not walk away without having learned something.
Unless they just walk away, that is.
So if you are up to talking about the issue, as well as the false charges made in at least the first link (and we know that if part is false this disqualifies the teacher as it did the Prophet), then I will see you in few days.
Hello James. While just as certain other issues it is hard to be dogmatic because we are not firsthand witnesses, I believe Revelation was written afterward.
A couple things to consider would be 1) if it predates AD70 we have the problem that the prophecy of Revelation...is wrong as the events do not correlate as our a millennial brethren insist; 2) according to Revelation 20 we would have expected the Eternal State shortly after about 1170 AD as we would also expect the prophecy to follow a similar fulfillment; 3) is it not held in tradition it was written AD91-96?
There is no way I could type more than lol or ttyl from a phone I hope your having a good trip P1LGR1M.
I simply believe there is no pre-trib rapture because to me it sounds very clear:
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(For me this one verse says it all. We which are alive and remain... sounds to me like there will be more dead then alive. If it is before the tribulation why would so many Christians be dead? If it is after the tribulation which is after the anti-Christ has come then I could see why so many Christians would be dead, he would be having us killed)
1 Thessalonians 5:1-2
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
The "day of the Lord" ....
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come
The day of the Lord is the "rapture" and the sun does not turn into darkness and the moon does not turn into blood before the tribulation. The start of the tribulation is when the abomination from the anti-Christ (personally I think that will be him sitting in the thrown of the new temple)
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
^Same as above
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken
It says immediately after the tribulation, not before.
1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory
^If all the tribes of the earth mourn when they see Jesus comming, and the dead are raised up and then us.... why would the tribes of the earth mourn when they see Jesus if they are convinced that the anti-Christ is Jesus?? I think we can all agree that the temple plays a big roll in the tribulation. The anti-Christ will have to convince the Jewish people that he is the messiah, and to do that he will have to be Jewish. If he does not convince them he is the messiah then they will not let him in the temple. When he sits in the thrown that is the abomination that starts the tribulation. Now if he has the Jewish people convinced he is the Messiah I assume he will have most nations convinced of the same, for him to be able to have a peace treaty signed. So if all or most of the nations or "tribes" think he is the messiah then why would they "mourn" the coming of Jesus... infact for it to be pre-trib Jesus would have to come before the anti-Christ or at least before the abomination of the anti-Christ. So how would they go from being in awe seeing Jesus coming in on clouds, having all the dead rise up and then having all the Christians rise up in the air... then to have the anti-Christ come and say "here I am, your messiah"... it makes no sense at all, no one could be that dumb.
I am not able to find the word "rapture" anywhere in the bible, so I can only assume the "rapture" is the day of the Lord as this is when he comes, and I can only find where he comes once, not twice (before the trib and then again after that)
I am still reading into everything and to be honest I wish it was pre-trib. I would rather not be around for what is to come, not to mention the faster I am off this earth and with the Lord the happier I will be. But I don't think it will be that easy... most things in leading a Christian life is not easy... infact I can't think of one bible story where someone had the easy way out, so why would the tribulation have an easy exit?
"Show me your ways, O LORD, teach me your paths; guide me in your truth and teach me, for you are God my Savior, and my hope is in you all day long. Remember, O LORD, your great mercy and love, for they are from of old. Remember not the sins of my youth and my rebellious ways; according to your love remember me, for you are good, O LORD."