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  #41  
Old 11th December 2012, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Easy G (G) View Post
Although I'm against Theophostics, I do wonder on yoga - and for that matter, other forms of exercise such as martial arts.
Just different colors of the same rainbow. They are are related, just diversified so that you aren't aware.

I'll touch too many hot-spots and desecrate too many sacred cows if I make a list of all things/practices that I know fall into these deceptions.
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  #42  
Old 11th December 2012, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Lulav View Post
Just different colors of the same rainbow. They are are related, just diversified so that you aren't aware.

I'll touch too many hot-spots and desecrate too many sacred cows if I make a list of all things/practices that I know fall into these deceptions.
I can understand how one could come to see that, although I'm concerned as to what in specific and if it always lines up. People have said the same thing about Disney movies, cartoons, comics, pyschology and all forms of exercise - including that which is natural/herbal based - are all a part of the rainbow...and all a matter of somehow glorifying the Devil.
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  #43  
Old 12th December 2012, 02:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Easy G (G) View Post
I think the theme of rebirth is consistent within what the apostles noted - as going from death to life is a change and it was a very big deal for them to note where God begot the Son in His resurrection, glorified him and rose Him up by His spirit.

The Bible says that God the Father judged his Son, Jesus the Christ, while his Son was on the cross. Christ was on the cross for six hours. The last three hours were the bad onesfor he took the judgment for mankind's sins; at the end of that period of time he voluntarily died physically. Jesus was crucified at 9:00 AM (Mark 15:25). and the land was darkened from noon until 3:00 PM (Matthew 27:45; Mark 15:33; Luke 23:44)....and Matthew wrote, Now from the sixth hour darkness fell upon all the land until the ninth hour. (Matthew 27: 45). Why the darkness for the second three hours on the cross? I agree with other scholars who note that the judgment was so catastrophic that the Father broke fellowship with the Son while he was bearing our sins and the sun was darkened during this time to indicate the terrible judgment and separation...and Jesus voiced this terrible separation from God the Father when he cried out to him while in darkness and on the cross: And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is, My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me? (Matthew 27:46. Also Mark 15:34).

At the end of this terrible judgment, Jesus voluntarily gave up his life in physical death: And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit (Matthew 27:50. Also Luke 23:46). John was very precise when he recorded Jesus physical death: When Jesus therefore had received the sour wine, He said, It is finished! And He bowed His head, and gave up His spirit (John 19:30, also Matthew 27:50 and Luke 23:46)---and all of that set the stage for how he would be the first fruits of them who slept (1 Corinthians 15:20-23), and the returning head of the church (1 Corinthians 11:26) and King of Kings and Lord of Lords (Revelation 19:11-16)

Much of it being in line with the Christus Victor viewpoint (discussed here )and the Ransom Theory...


And a spiritually dead (as in seperated from the Father) Lord is not one who ceases to be the Lord--or other logical fallacies when people assume one must believe that it's impossible for Christ, in some kind of way, to be forsaken. His spirit went to be with the Lord after He died, but at some point he was literally forsaken/cursed and experienced the Full Wrath of the Lord we deserved.

As a man, Christ walked in communion with the Holy SPirit..who empowered Him to do ministry and who He looked forward to sending after He rose so that others could have that relationship. But when He was on the Cross, even if it was for a minute, the Spirit left Him/the Father turned His face away from the Son.....as the Father cannot look upon sin. For the first time in Eternity, there was a Divine Seperation that Christ was grieved by---and yet He was accepted later. the biblical concept of "death" does not mean "ceasing to exist," but rather means "separation." Spiritual death means the separation of the spirit from God. With the spirit cut off from God, a man would still be able to function physically, but could no longer directly experience God. While Jesus hung there, God the Father reached back in time and took the spiritual death that had been generated by Adam and those who came after him and placed it on Jesus Christ. Then (because He created time and lives outside of it) God looked forward in time and took all the spiritual death generated by you and me and all the other men and women who will be born until the end of time and put that death on Jesus too.

It's amazing that Jesus cried, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me?"..for He was experiencing to the fullest the spiritual death generated by countless men and women throughout the ages as the Wrath of God was poured out upon Him to bear it. He literally experienced spiritual hell on the cross as He was cut off from God, even though He committed no sin and was not deserving of death. He actually died spiritually in our place. However, after that moment, his Spirit went to be with the Lord.


One actually goes BEYOND the Lord when assuming that the Life Giving Lord is unable to do whatever it is He wishes..including taking on our sins/becoming seperated...and again, it can come off circular (i.e. "It's wrong because it's just unthinkable to see the Lord being able to DIE!!!!!"). There's the plain reality that Christ was both FULLY Human/Fully God and able to DIE. By the Logic others used, Yeshua should have never been able to die at ALL since He was God at all times...but He laid down His life in Sacrifice/was put to death in the Body---and deemed "cursed" as the scriptures plainly note. To limit what the Lord can do would be akin to saying God cannot be everywhere and do ALL things...and I don't plan on going there personally.

I don't pretend to understand the depth, height, width or breadth of what satisfaction it took God to pay for the penalty of mans sin. The Bible teaches that the wages of sin is death and I agree with others who understand that to be a spiritual/physical death, a spiritual separation from the presence of God for all eternity. While I can't grasp it, I know by faith that Jesus experienced the spiritual death I should have experienced, the separation that was mine was experienced by Jesus on the cross on my behalf.

Martin Luther, Luther on Galatians, ( American edition, vol 26, p.278 ) says plainly that. Our sins must be Christs own sin, or we shall perish eternally. The wicked sophists have obscured this true knowledge of Christ which Paul and the prophets have handed down to us.
I see, so you do not believe the closing words of Psalm 22, (specifically Psalm 22:24) have anything to do with the opening statement of the same passage which Yeshua cries out upon the Cross? Neither do you believe his own words when he said that even if all of the disciples left him he would not be alone because the Father was with him? Or how can you then understand why the tsipporim are the undivided, (''are not two sparrows sold for a farthing?'' and for what purpose were they sold at the temple? ''Yet the one from them shall not fall into the earth without your Father'') or how then can you understand what these things imply in the understanding of passages like the Genesis 15 Covenant or Leviticus 14. You may think that none of this has any relevance to what you have said but then again you do not seem to realize that when you suggest that Yeshua became sin for you, (because of a misreading of that passage) then you also are suggesting that your Passover Lamb became your scapegoat with all the sins upon its head. And if one is eating scapegoat which he found out in the wilderness that explains much.

Psalms 22:22-26 KJV
22. I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23. Ye that fear the Lord, [YHWH] praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24. For he [YHWH] hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; [Yeshua] neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25. My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26. The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the Lord that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
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  #44  
Old 12th December 2012, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by daq View Post
I see, so you do not believe the closing words of Psalm 22, (specifically Psalm 22:24) have anything to do with the opening statement of the same passage which Yeshua cries out upon the Cross? Neither do you believe his own words when he said that even if all of the disciples left him he would not be alone because the Father was with him?
If you're going to spread a falsehood, one needs evidence of such. There was never at any point anything mentioned on not believing Psalm 22:24 and thus (again) you argue with yourself on what was not said. For the context determines meaning - and seeing that Yeshua was indeed NOT forsaken in the long scheme of things since he was redeemed, you need to do better at addressing scripture. It was already the case where the scriptures made plain Christ would become sin for us/take our place and shame - and trying to go backward to claim "Well he wasn't forsaken" doesn't make for a case.

"Forsaken" MEANS "to abandon, to leave altogether." There had to be, IMHO, a level of seperation present in order for the entire concept of being rescued to come into play...as in real seperation that took place in order for it to be understood that the Lord never abandoned him---just as a parent walking away from his or her own daughter does not mean that they've abandoned them....even though for a time, they created a seperation. For Christ to literally sweat blood in anticipation, there was something more than the mere symbolism of becoming sin that caused the Lord to ask "Please, take this cup away"---for it was not just physical death he was fearful of since he had been faced with that many times before and wasn't afraid...or filled with dread/overwhelmed with sorrow, as He said directly. Ultimately, Christ was not abandoned in the long run since he was eventually rescued. Psalm 16 is something that comes to mind, as it concerns what the Psalmist noted when it came to Psalm 16:10 with not being abandoned to the grave. Both Peter and Paul quoted this psalm when speaking of CHRIST's bodily ressurection (see Acts 2:25--28, Acts 2:31, Acts 13:35-37).

Psalm 17:15 is another one, in regards to the statement "And I---in righteousness I will see your face; when I awake, I will be satisfied with seeing your likeness."

Psalm 22 was one dealing with the reality of how suffering comes from the attacks of unscrupulous people and is intensified by the mockery of those who should feel sympathy...but the person in the Psalm, nevertheless, looks forward to vindication and joyful worship with the rest of God's people. However, in view of its prominent place within the Crucixfiction story, it's proper to see it as a prediction of the Sufferings of Jesus. Of course, some have read it as a lament in its OT context, with a fuller meaning revealed by Jesus' use of it. It is better to see this psalm as providing a lament for the innocent sufferer...and then to see how all the Gospels use this to portray Jesus as an innocent sufferer par excellence. Consider how Matthew 27 uses the psalm. Matthew 27:35 echoes Psalm 22:18 (dividing garments by lot)...and Matthew 27:35 echoes 22:7 (wagging heads)..and Matthew 27:43 echoes Psalm 22:8 (with the derisive challenge for God to rescue him.....and of course, Matthew 27:46 cites Psalm 22:1 with Jesus crying out.

Matthew presents Jesus as a thoroughly good/faithful person who is brutally and unjustly executed..and mocked by those who should have supported him. But this portrayal of Jesus in light of Psalm 22 allows Christ's followers as well to expect some kind of vindication, as vv 22-31 describe....and they are not disappointed...as they read the Hebrews account in Hebrews 2:12.

Now---with David in comparision to Jesus, remembering what the Lord said when it came to him saying in, “And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice and said, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” – which means, “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?” (Mark 15:34). Jesus was not merely interpreting his current circumstances according to God’s Word because this is a quote from Psalm 22...as it was fulfillment.

David when quoting the Psalm was obviously enduring some great trial-and must have been going through a rough time to say this to God...with all hope being lost. But of course David was not really experiencing being forsaken by God. For He was just feeling extreme despair at the moment of writing this

This verse is present in Psalm 22 and on Jesus’ lips because it points forward to something greater. In saying this, I say this meaning that it points forward to the One who would truthfully experience being forsaken by God, Jesus. This was not true for David, as God promised him very much (2 Samuel 7:11 ). And though going through suffering, like the Messiah to come, David gained Victory in the end. It's the entire reality of how many times God has to "lay low" in the life of a believer where it seems his back is turned on them/He chooses not to respond---and to a degree, it is....but they have not been given up on in the sense that God will not leave them where they are at. What David said in Psalm 22:1 is not a cry of Doubt but one of an urgent appeal to God. Being Forsaken is not true for us either, as God promised to always be with us (Matthew 28:19-20 / ). However, this was true for Jesus. For the One who had never before experienced seperation from God, Jesus, for the first time experienced being forsaken by God.

The main reasons, if Scripture is the FINAL answer are the following .....that we might become the righteousness of God through Him (2 Corinthians 5:21 . There was no other way....and on the issue, this tends to be where most willfully skip over what the Word says plainly.
21God made him who had no sin to be sin[] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
This verse is one of the most important in all of Scripture for understanding the meaning of the Atonement and justification. For here we see that the one who knew no sin is Jesus Christ...and that he (God) made him (Christ) to be sin. The Greek Word is hamartia, which means that God the Father made Christ to be regarded and treated as "Sin" even though Christ Himself NEVER sinned ( Hebrews 4:14-16 , ). Further, we see that God did this for our sake--that is, God regarded and treated "our" sin (the sin of all who would believe in Christ) as if our sin belonged not to us but to Christ Himself. Thus, Christ "died for all" 2 Corinthians 5:13-15 / ...and , as Peter wrote, "He himself bore our sins in His body on a tree".1 Peter 2:23-25/

I think A.T. Robertson places it best when stating the following in their commentary on Matthew 26 with being forsaken..for as he said in Word Pictures:
Forsaken (\egkatelipes\). Some MSS. give \“neidisas\ (reproached). We are not able to enter into the fulness of the desolation felt by Jesus at this moment as the Father regarded him as sin (2Co 5:21). This desolation was the deepest suffering. He did not cease to be the Son of God. That would be impossible.
Also, in regards to what was noted with II Corinthians 5:21
Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

Him who knew no sin ton mh gnonta amartian). Definite claim by Paul that Jesus did not commit sin, had no personal acquaintance mh gnonta second aorist active participle of ginwskw with it. Jesus made this claim for himself (John 8:46). This statement occurs also in 1 Peter 2:22; Hebrews 4:15; Hebrews 7:26; 1 John 3:5. Christ was and is "a moral miracle" (Bernard) and so more than mere man. He made to be sin amartian epoihsen). The words "to be" are not in the Greek. "Sin" here is the substantive, not the verb. God "treated as sin" the one "who knew no sin." But he knew the contradiction of sinners (Hebrews 12:3). We may not dare to probe too far into the mystery of Christ's suffering on the Cross, but this fact throws some light on the tragic cry of Jesus just before he died: "My God, My God, why didst thou forsake me?" (Matthew 27:46). That we might become ina hmei genwmeqa). Note "become." This is God's purpose ina) in what he did and in what Christ di
In becoming "Sin" for our sakes, Christ became our subsitute, thereby BORE GOD'S WRATH (the punishment that we deserve) in our place (for our sake). Thus the techincal term for this foundational doctrine----and what has been essential in the Church for ages when it comes to basic witnessing to others on the GOOD NEWS---is the Substitutionary Atonement---that Christ has provided the atoning sacrifice as "our" subsitute, for the sins of all who believe. Romans 3:12 . The background for this is Isaiah 53, from the Greek (Septuagint) translation of the Hebrew OT, which includes the most lengthy and detailed OT prophecy of Christ's death and which contains NUMEROUS parallels to II Corinthians 5:21. Isaiah's prophecy specifically used the Greek word for "Sin" (Gk, hamarita) five times...with reference to the coming Savior (the Suffering Servant) in just a few verses------e.g., "Surely he has born our griefs" (Isaiah 53:4); "He was crushed for OUR iniquities (Isaiah 53:11); "He shall bear their iniquities" ( Isaiah 53:11); "He bore the sin of many (Isaiah 53:12); "He has laid on them the iniqiuty of us all" ( Isaiah 53:6 ).

In a precise fufillment of this prophecy in Isaiah 53, Christ became "sin" for those who believe in Him, so that in Him we might become the Righteousness of God. This means that just as God imputed our sin and guilt to Christ ("he made Him to BE SIN") so God also imputes the righteousness of Christ---a Righteousness that is not our own---to all who believe in Christ. Because Christ bore the sins of those who believe, God regards and treats believers as having the legal status of righteousness...with Greek Word being "dikaiosyne".

Or how can you then understand why the tsipporim are the undivided, (''are not two sparrows sold for a farthing?'' and for what purpose were they sold at the temple? ''Yet the one from them shall not fall into the earth without your Father'') or how then can you understand what these things imply in the understanding of passages like the Genesis 15 Covenant or Leviticus 14. You may think that none of this has any relevance to what you have said but then again you do not seem to realize that when you suggest that Yeshua became sin for you

You don' =t, (because of a misreading of that passage) then you also are suggesting that your Passover Lamb became your scapegoat with all the sins upon its head. And if one is eating scapegoat which he found out in the wilderness that explains much.

Psalms 22:22-26 KJV
22. I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23. Ye that fear the Lord, [YHWH] praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24. For he [YHWH] hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; [Yeshua] neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25. My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26. The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the Lord that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
Again, seeing that none of what you said really addresses the scripture and that you already misread numerous passages, that's your loss in lacking ability to deal with it properly

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Old 12th December 2012, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by daq View Post
I see, so you do not believe the closing words of Psalm 22, (specifically Psalm 22:24) have anything to do with the opening statement of the same passage which Yeshua cries out upon the Cross? .
"My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?" are some of the most profondly mysterious words in all of the Bible. And in reading the text for what it is, in some sense Jesus had to be cut off from the favor of and fellowship with the Father that had been his eternally, because he was bearing the sins of his people and therefore enduring God's Wrath. (Isaiah 53:5-7 / Isaiah 53/ Romans 3:25 , 2 Corinthians 5:21 , Galatians 3:13 , 1 John 2:2 ). And yet in quoting Psalm 22:1-3/Psalm 22 Jesus probably had in mind the remainder of the psalm as well, which moves to a cry of victory in Psalm 22:21-31....and Jesus, knowing this, expresses faith, calling God "my God." As evidenced by the number of times He had warned His disciples that He'd die (Matthew 20:18-20 / /Matthew 26:1-3/ /Mark 10:32-34 / /Mark 9:31-33 / /Luke 9:44-46/ )----and by the fact that He had even hoped there'd be ANOTHER way to go about it (Matthew 26:38-40 ), surely Jesus knows why He is Dying...for that was the entire purpose of his coming to the Earth ( Matthew 16:20-22 //Matthew 20:17-19 Matthew 20 ). And surely his cry, uttered with a loud voice, is expressing, not bewilderment at his plight, but witness to the bystanders, and through them to the world., that he was experiencing God-Forsakenness not for anything in Himself....but for the salvation of others. Surely Matthew, understanding this, quotes Jesus's words to challenge his readers.
Hebrews 2:9
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
Hebrews 2


Andrew Murray said it best when he stated "Some men die without tasting the bitterness of death; Jesus tasted its bitterness, as the curse of sin, in full measure.".. For more in-depth info, one can look up his book entitled The Holiest of All (Tarrytown, NY: Fleming H. Revell Co.,)..and look on pp. 80-81. Also, as John Gill said on the issue when it comes to Hebrews 2:9---with the language being exceptionally strong in Verse 9:
]that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man;
that is, Christ was made a little lower than the angels by becoming man, and assuming a body frail and mortal, that he might die for his church and people: to "taste death", is a Jewish phrase, often to be met with in Rabbinical writings; (See Gill on Matthew 16:28) and signifies the truth and reality of his death, and the experience he had of the bitterness of it, it being attended with the wrath of God, and curse of the law; though he continued under it but for a little while, it was but a taste; and it includes all kinds of death, he tasted of the death of afflictions, being a man of sorrows all his days, and a corporeal death, and what was equivalent to an eternal one; and so some think the words will bear to be rendered, "that he by the grace of God might taste of every death"; which rendering of the words, if it could be established, as it is agreeable to the context, and to the analogy of faith, would remove all pretence of an argument from this place, in favour of the universal scheme: what moved God to make him lower than the angels, and deliver him up to death, was not any anger towards him, any disregard to him, or because he deserved it, but his "grace", free favour, and love to men; this moved him to provide him as a ransom; to preordain him to be the Lamb slain; to send him in the fulness of time, and give him up to justice and death: the Syriac version reads, "for God himself through his own grace tasted death for all"; Christ died, not merely as an example, or barely for the good of men, but as a surety, in their room and stead, and that not for every individual of mankind; for there are some he knows not; for some he does not pray; and there are some who will not be saved: the word "man" is not in the original text, it is only () , which may be taken either collectively, and be rendered "for the whole"; that is, the whole body, the church for whom Christ gave himself, and is the Saviour of; or distributively, and be translated, "for everyone"; for everyone of the sons God brings to glory, (Hebrews 2:10) for everyone of the "brethren", whom Christ sanctifies, and he is not ashamed to own, and to whom he declares the name of God, (Hebrews 2:11,12) for everyone of the members of the "church", in the midst of which he sung praise, (Hebrews 2:12) for every one of the "children" God has given him, and for whose sake he took part of flesh and blood, (Hebrews 2:13,14) and for everyone of the "seed" of Abraham, in a spiritual sense, whose nature he assumed, (Hebrews 2:16) .

Additionally, as seen in Chapter 2 of Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible---by Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown (who in NO uncertain terms, share their views):
His exaltation after sufferings is the perfecting or consummation of His work (Hebrews 2:10) for us: without it His death would have been ineffectual; with it, and from it, flows the result that His tasting of death is available for (in behalf of, for the good of) every man. He is crowned as the Head in heaven of our common humanity, presenting His blood as the all-prevailing plea for us. This coronation above makes His death applicable for every individual man (observe the singular; not merely "for all men"), Hebrews 4:14, 9:24, 1 John 2:2. "Taste death" implies His personal experimental undergoing of death: death of the body, and death (spiritually) of the soul, in His being forsaken of the Father. "As a physician first tastes his medicines to encourage his sick patient to take them, so Christ, when all men feared death, in order to persuade them to be bold in meeting it, tasted it Himself. though He had no need" [CHRYSOSTOM]. (Hebrews 2:14,15).
Jesus' torment, despite his anticipations of it in Gethsemane, was surely inconceivable in advance...Matthew 24:36 . There is no escaping the reality of how Jesus's crying out to God in immense pain of Divine Abandonment ( Isaiah 59:1-3 / Isaiah 59 ) which he suffers as a substitute for sinful mankind.
Isaiah 53/Isaiah 53:8
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression [a] and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken. [b]
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.


God CANNOT look upon sin/iniquity...as only sin and iniquities can create a practical barrier between God and His people, typically resulting in God's Discipline.
Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.
Isaiah 59:1-3 / Isaiah 59
Many other scriptures on the very issue, [as God cannot look upon sin and it is not allowed in His presence Leviticus 22:2-4 / Leviticus 22/ ( Jeremiah 23:38-40 / Jeremiah 23 /2 Kings 24:19-20 2 Kings 24/Jeremiah 52:2-4/ Jeremiah 52/2 Thessalonians 1:8-10/ 2 Thessalonians 1 /)With Galatians 3:13, the reality is that the divine curse is the result of disobediance...but the burden has been lifted by Christ's work on the cross.
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Old 12th December 2012, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by visionary View Post
I don't think Yeshua experienced any rebirths... not even in the resurrection.. He IS and Will always be in the state of I AM.. ..
I think duality of nature makes a big difference as it concerns change.
Acts 2:25-32

25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

The Biblical record seems to indicate that Jesus WAS helpless in his situation, and it was Father who righteously resurrected Him AND Glorified him....even though it was Christ who freely chose to lay down his life/yield Himself to Death ( John 10:16-18, John 12:26-28 )--and it was not an easy thing to do. For even the Son of Man dreaded what was in front of him, to the point where even the Lord had moments of doubt....and was OVERWHELMED with Sorrow/Great emptiness, to the point of death ( Matthew 26:37-39, Mark 14:33-35, Luke 22:39-48 , Hebrews 12:1-3, etc ). But God brought Him back...
Acts 3:14-16
You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.


Acts 5:29-31
The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the deadwhom you had killed by hanging him on a tree.


Acts 10:39-41
but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen.


Acts 13:29-31
But God raised him from the dead,


Acts 13:33-35
32"We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers 33he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm:
" 'You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.[a]'

The fact that God raised him from the dead, never to decay, is stated in these words: " 'I will give you the holy and sure blessings promised to David.36"For when David had served God's purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his fathers and his body decayed. 37But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay. 38"Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you.
Romans 4:23-25
but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousnessfor us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

Romans 6:3-5
We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Romans 10:9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


Romans 8:1
11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.




Galatians 1:1-3
Paul, an apostlesent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead


Ephesians 1
That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms,

Colossians 2:11
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,[a] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.


1 Peter 1:20-22
Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

1 Peter 3:17-19
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,

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Paul often expounded upon the role of the Holy Spirit in the Life of Christ and how dualistic it was, showing how Christ relied upon the Spirit for the Ministry and the Power of the HOLY Spirit to raise the Body of Christ from the Grave (as he noted in Acts 2:26-28, Acts 2:30-32, Acts 13:27-38, Romans 1:3-5 , Romans 8:10-12, Hebrews 9:13-15, etc )......with it being established that the Spirit of Christ was present with the Father...and this is said in light of what the Word says when Luke 23:46 ( Mt 27:50, Mk 15:37, Jn 19:30, etc) tells us that Christ gave up His SPirit...and while the Physical Body of Christ remained, the Spirit of Christ left...and scripture shows where His spirit would go: into the Father's hands.....just like Jesus told the thief on the cross when saying "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43), even though his Physical Body was still in the GRAVE...and very similar to how Stephen saw Jesus in heaven and asked Him to receive his spirit (Acts 7:55-60).
1 Peter 3:18-19
"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit19through whom[a] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
Other texts to consider are where he addressed the issue of Christ being God and yet explaining the reality of his coming with the emphasis on his being a man ( Phillippians 2, Hebrews 2:17, Hebrews 4:15, etc)--being perfected/living life as a Perfect man and experiencing growth/development as all men do in His PHYSICAL nature ( Hebrews 5:4-10, Luke 2:39-40, Luke 2:51-52, etc ) in order to aid us in our own growth of becoming like Him, both Co-Heirs with Him and "Sons of the Lord" ( Romans 6-8). For Christ's divine authority is meaningless unless, with respect to his humanity, he has been raised from the dead.....as only a Resurrected Lord can be our cohem gadol, interceding with the Father on our behalf (Romans 8:34, Matthew 4:14, etc), only a resurrected man can be the firstfruits of the resurrection promised to us (Romans 8:23-29, I Corinthians 15) and only a resurrected Messiah can come to rule in glory and fulfill the universal Jewish expectation of final deliverance for the nations of Israel.
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Old 12th December 2012, 09:14 AM
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So to you rebirth = resurrection

To me it is as Yeshua said.. death = sleep

There is no rebirth in awakening from sleep... thus resurrection is not a rebirth

I took a look on the internet and this new age theology of connecting rebirth with reincarnation/resurrection can be found ..
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Old 12th December 2012, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by visionary View Post
So to you rebirth = resurrection

To me it is as Yeshua said.. death = sleep
He also said that His glorified state was radically different than how it was when he lived prior to death. Differing forms of existence - as opposed to the view that says he only slept in the grave/nothing changed on his form. Christ was the first of His kind to truly ressurect as He did with the abilities he did. He is truly the Firstborn from the dead ( Colossians 1:17-19 , Revelation 1:4-6 , etc), in that He was...and always will be...the PROTOTYPE of what it is that will follow for all Trusting in the Father as He did and looking unto His finished Work (John 11). And all who look to Him will be adopted into the Resurrection power JUST AS HE was adopted into the Resurrection from the dead. He conquered death in His resurrection - not necessarily in how he lived/was BEFORE He died - and his resurrected body is RADICALLY different than the Pre-Death body (i.e. walking through walls, teleportation, etc. - all of us getting what he got according to I Corinthians 15).
Hebrews 5:5
7 During the days of Jesus life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
Either one believes it or they don't

Christ was the Firstborn in the sense of being the first of many to come who'd be like Him since that was the context it was originally understood in...especially as it concerns Christ being the firstfruits of Creation, in line with the concept of firstfruits in the OT ( Jeremiah 2:2-4, Ezekiel 44:29-31, Proverbs 3:9, Psalm 78:51, 2 Chronicles 31:4-6 , Deuteronomy 26:9-11 , Numbers 18:11-13, Exodus 34:26, ):
I Corinthians 15:20
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
1 Corinthians 15:22-24
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.


There is no rebirth in awakening from sleep ... thus resurrection is not a rebirth
If it was solely an issue of sleep, obviously. Scripture, however, never says that Yeshua only slept - just as it also never says that those who die are only sleeping. More was already shared in-depth on the issue elsewhere, as seen here:
Originally Posted by visionary View Post
Sleep and resurrection...

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Every time Yeshua spoke of the dead.. He explains their state of dead..

Matthew 9:24
He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.
Originally Posted by Easy G (G) View Post
.. agree with what He said when it came to His supporting the Law, Prophets and the scriptures in the TORAH...and many of those things discussed how the spirits of the dead are not simply doing nothing. That is why I say that seeing his words on the dead being "alseep" need to be taken within the context of how early Jewish believers would have seen it. For they did not have the mindset that being dead/"asleep" meant that there was no form of waiting in a temporary state or that spirits of the deceased are not existing in the spiritual realms.

When one comes face to face with the Lord in totality, then one has truly AWOKEN--and everything else is truly a dream.....but prior to Christ, this is something that didn't happen immediately. As said before, What happens to the breath when it leaves the body (since it is the animating principle)? This question troubled the ancients, and had different opinions as we see here:
Ecclesiastes 3:21
Who knoweth the spirit [breath] of man that goeth upward, and the spirit [breath] of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
One theory held that it returned to God:
Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [breath] shall return unto God who gave it.


For those who thought the breath was still alive and returned to God, they reasoned that one might see the disembodied breath on its way to God at differing times...and the Lord would also allow it to occur in certain cases. This temporary traveling breath was a ghost (ghost was the Anglo word for breath).

This all goes back to what was mentioned earlier in when it came to Samuel being summoned by Saul in I Samuel 28
.....

And as I Samuel 28 indicates, it was possible to talk with someone from the deceased if....and ONLY if...the Lord allowed it to occur. For Samuel, he was in good relation to the Lord/resting (i.e. "sleeping")...but was distrubed from his temporary state of rest. There has to be a conscious state of some sort even as "sleep" was occurring for the dead if the scriptures are to be consistent. The same can be said of Jesus. For some use Ephesians 4:7-10 to teach that Jesus went to hell or to Hades to release the prisoners held there and take them to heaven or into Gods presence. The idea is that before His death, all Old Testament believers were in Abrahams bosomthe paradise part of Hades. Hades or Sheol was seen as the place of the dead with three areas or compartments: (1) the abyss or tartarus, the place of confinement for those demons who sinned in the days of Noah; (2) torments, the place of suffering for all unbelievers until the time of the resurrection of the unjust and the Great White Throne Judgment when they will be cast eternally into the lake of fire, and (3) a third place separated by a great gulf (see Luke 16), called Abrahams Bosom, the place of blessing for believers.

Originally Posted by Easy G (G) View Post
Truly, within scripture, the Saints are not shown to be dead...but alive and able to see and know what goes on on earth.

All saints live on/are in existence with the Father.

One of my mentors had something occur for them when they were a young couple with a beautiful baby boy. The child was literally torn apart by a pit-bull from next door--and although they tried to save the child, the child died. The couple grieved for a long time on the issue, even after being saved. However, they sought to trust in the Lord.

During service in church, my friend had a vision of heaven opening...and this beautiful lady in white robes was present with his little son also clothed in white as well. It shocked him, as he had been praying for weeks that the Lord would please give him clarity on where his son was and what to do. When he described the vision to his wife, she procedded to ask what the other lady looked like--and it astonished her hearing it. For she explained that the way he described the woman holding the child was the EXACT same way her grandmother looked like...and her grandmother who passed was a righteous woman of God who loved the Lord with all of her might before her passing. When she described that to my friend, he was overjoyed/broke down since it let him know that the Lord truly took care of his young one...and that he was in Heaven with the Lord.

Truly amazing and one of the reasons I know the saints continue to be with the Lord and even interact with the living with HIS permission when he sees fit. Although those serving the Lord have purpose/are with him intercedding for us just as the Lord Jesus and others do in Heaven....I think there's alot of merit in noting that at times, may be allowed to return if the Lord wants them to show something
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For others of the mindset that death ends all things, including communication, I think there's a bit of duality with the subject. Yeshua said the dead sleep as in the example of Lazarus.. and I wouldn't argue with Him on the state of the dead.. He knows what He is talking about.

Being "asleep" doesn't mean being without a conscious state of being. It simply means being in a temporary state of rest---and as it concerns the concept of departed spirits/ghosts, that is inherent when it comes to discussing the reality of how there's a duality of life/death inherent in life. Even when people die, they still live...but they may be in a different state than how it'll be when there's a resurrection. John 11:13-15 shows Jesus making plain that Lazarus is dead, yet he was able to raise Him to life....and prior to Jesus saying plainly to his disciples that Lazarus was dead, he said in John 11:10-12 that Lazarus had fallen asleep. Thus, the concept of death was still present...but it was given a context. The same goes for the little girl who Jesus rose from the grave--for Jesus noted that she had been "asleep" ( Mark 5:38-40 ) rather than "Dead" in the sense of forever lost/diminished. Same thing goes for Acts 7:59-60 when Stephen was killed and it was described as him falling asleep.

In sleep, the mind is STILL active and thus its why dreaming occurs...specifically at the stage of REM Sleep. One is inactive and yet their spirit is still processing things in a state that is not fully how things are meant to be...and the same goes for the concept of death. One can die physically in their body, yet still be in a state akin to dreaming where they're not yet where they are to be.

sleep = death
Psalm 13:3

Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

The kings of Israel.. "slept with their fathers"
1 Kings 2:10
So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.
And years later... David is still dead and buried..
Acts 2:29
Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said..
1 Kings 11:43
And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.
1 Kings 14:20
And the days which Jeroboam reigned were two and twenty years: and he slept with his fathers, and Nadab his son reigned in his stead.
1 Kings 14:31
And Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David. And his mother's name was Naamah an Ammonitess. And Abijam his son reigned in his stead.
Sleep and resurrection.
Daniel 12:2

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Every time Yeshua spoke of the dead.. He explains their state of dead..

Seeing his words on the dead being "alseep" need to be taken within the context of how early Jewish believers would have seen it. For they did not have the mindset that being dead/"asleep" meant that there was no form of waiting in a temporary state or that spirits of the deceased are not existing in the spiritual realms.

When one comes face to face with the Lord in totality, then one has truly AWOKEN--and everything else is truly a dream.....but prior to Christ, this is something that didn't happen immediately.

For those trusting in the Lord, there's a bit of a duality...as they will not ultimately perish since they will be with Him. Jesus noted this when it came to the Sadducees not believing in the resurrection...and his saying that the Lord is the God of the Living ( Matthew 22:31-33 , Luke 20:37-39 , Mark 12:18-28 , etc). The OT saints had this hope as well (Psalm 17:14-15 , Psalm 16:9-11 , Acts 2:26-28 / Acts 2 , 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 , etc)

G
There's a reason other Jewish commentators have noted for a good bit that the Resurrected Lord was reborn from the death - and why the authors of scripture note rather plainly what they did on Yeshua being the firstborn from the dead. No way around that.



I took a look on the internet and this new age theology of connecting rebirth with reincarnation/resurrection can be found ..
Interesting, as there also is new age theology concerning the issue of men simply sleeping when they died - if aware of the concept of soul sleep (although it's often debated as to its validity). Of course, a concept held by one group doesn't indicate it's unbiblical solely because they hold it anymore than coffee becomes bad at Starbucks because an atheist believes coffee is good just as believers in Christ do.

Last edited by Gxg (G); 12th December 2012 at 09:53 AM.
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Old 12th December 2012, 12:02 PM
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I have serious problems with that verse of Heb 5:5. If Yeshua was God in the flesh, why on earth would he need to learn obedience? Didn't he already know all about it?
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Old 12th December 2012, 12:51 PM
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..being "firstborn" is a supremacy position for without His resurrection we could not have ours.
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