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Paterology, Christology & Pneumatology The forum to discuss the doctrine & nature of God the Father, Christ the Son & the Holy Spirit.

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  #1  
Unread 20th November 2012, 06:59 PM
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Jesus as the Holy Spirit

I have been studying the trinity lately. One thing that I think I understand in the doctrine itself is that each person of the trinity cannot be another person. For example, The Father is not the Son; the Son is not the Father; Neither are the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is neither of the previous Two. If I am wrong on this, please correct me.

My question is rooted in John 14:16-18
"16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

It would seem to me that Jesus is directly identifying himself AS the comforter that was to be IN them, namely the Holy Spirit. Obviously not in a form of flesh, but in spiritual form. When I study comfortless in verse 18, I see that the greek word means orphans. So Jesus is saying that I will not leave you as Orphans, I will come to you. Meaning that He will adopt us and be a Father to us.

Romans 8:15 shows that we are adopted by the Spirit, and makes us cry out to our Father. But if Christ adopts us, then He is our Father.
"For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father."

I also see in Corinthians that Paul says.."Now Christ is THAT Spirit."

I am having a hard time reconciling this passage and seeing the three persons each as their own individual and not as the same person. Can someone please help me understand this from a Trinitarian perspective?

Thank you in advance!
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  #2  
Unread 20th November 2012, 07:22 PM
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Jesus' crisis of the will in Gethsemane necessitated a separate person from the Father and the Spirit. He had to win this struggle Himself in the passion. He had to show the way to obedience; otherwise He is not honestly our forerunner; neither is He convincingly our identifying High Priest. But praise God there is a Trinity! And our mediator is "the man Christ Jesus".
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Unread 20th November 2012, 07:37 PM
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Idea

Originally Posted by Veritas238 View Post
I have been studying the trinity lately. One thing that I think I understand in the doctrine itself is that each person of the trinity cannot be another person. For example, The Father is not the Son; the Son is not the Father; Neither are the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is neither of the previous Two. If I am wrong on this, please correct me.

My question is rooted in John 14:16-18
"16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

It would seem to me that Jesus is directly identifying himself AS the comforter that was to be IN them, namely the Holy Spirit. Obviously not in a form of flesh, but in spiritual form. When I study comfortless in verse 18, I see that the greek word means orphans. So Jesus is saying that I will not leave you as Orphans, I will come to you. Meaning that He will adopt us and be a Father to us.

Romans 8:15 shows that we are adopted by the Spirit, and makes us cry out to our Father. But if Christ adopts us, then He is our Father.
"For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father."

I also see in Corinthians that Paul says.."Now Christ is THAT Spirit."

I am having a hard time reconciling this passage and seeing the three persons each as their own individual and not as the same person. Can someone please help me understand this from a Trinitarian perspective?

Thank you in advance!
Hi Veritas238,

Jesus is not the Holy Spirit, but He is our Advocate. The Son declares that the Holy Spirit is ANOTHER Advocate. Thus showing that there is indeed a Third Person of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity.

When Jesus says that "I will come to you" ... this is true of the Father as well. For by the Divine Indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the Father AND the Son also come to dwell in our hearts by what is called SANCTIFYING GRACE (which we receive in Holy Baptism).[Not only the Holy Spirit]

Also it is helpful to understand what is called CIRCUMINCESSION.
This simply means that the Father is wholly in the Son and the Son is wholly in the Father and that the Father and the Son are wholly in the Holy Spirit and that the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father AND the Son.

Another important thing to understand about the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity is that each of the THREE Divine Persons have a UNITY of OPERATION. All that the Father does the Son does AND the Holy Spirit does. The THREE Divine Persons have ONE NATURE and also they have ONE WILL (as God) ... ONE DIVINE WILL.

Jesus, being both God and Man, possessing 2 Natures, possesses 2 Wills.

This is the Orthodox Catholic Teaching of Christ.

God bless you.
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Blessed are those who hear the voice of the Good Shepherd.

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  #4  
Unread 20th November 2012, 07:39 PM
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It is correct theology, according to the Trinity, that each persons are not the same but distinct.

Now, I am not at all understanding how you derive that John 14:16-18 means Christ directly saying he is the Spirit. In fact, there are many indications that point us to the opposite conclusion. In verse 16, Christ is claiming the Father is going to send another Counselor, and that suggests it must be someone other than Christ. In verse 17 Christ says "he will be with you," not "I will be with you." In verse 18 when Christ says "I will be with you" that is in reference to perhaps his second coming which can be seen as parallel to John 14:3: "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."
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Unread 20th November 2012, 07:51 PM
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One thing I can add is ... the Three are ONE in TOTAL UNITY of purpose, and etc.

.
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Unread 21st November 2012, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by AHJE View Post
Hi Veritas238,

Jesus is not the Holy Spirit, but He is our Advocate. The Son declares that the Holy Spirit is ANOTHER Advocate. Thus showing that there is indeed a Third Person of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity.

When Jesus says that "I will come to you" ... this is true of the Father as well. For by the Divine Indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the Father AND the Son also come to dwell in our hearts by what is called SANCTIFYING GRACE (which we receive in Holy Baptism).[Not only the Holy Spirit]

Also it is helpful to understand what is called CIRCUMINCESSION.
This simply means that the Father is wholly in the Son and the Son is wholly in the Father and that the Father and the Son are wholly in the Holy Spirit and that the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father AND the Son.

Another important thing to understand about the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity is that each of the THREE Divine Persons have a UNITY of OPERATION. All that the Father does the Son does AND the Holy Spirit does. The THREE Divine Persons have ONE NATURE and also they have ONE WILL (as God) ... ONE DIVINE WILL.

Jesus, being both God and Man, possessing 2 Natures, possesses 2 Wills.

This is the Orthodox Catholic Teaching of Christ.

God bless you.
I like this response. Even if it came from a Roman Catholic.

I don't agree that grace comes by way of baptism, but therein lies a distinction between Roman Catholics and protestants anyways.

Oh, and the two wills part, I hope you do not believe that there are two persons in the hypostatic union. I think there was one person, and therefore only one will in Jesus Christ. However, I'm open to correction from the Scriptures or plain reason.
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Unread 21st November 2012, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by bsd058 View Post
I like this response. Even if it came from a Roman Catholic.

I don't agree that grace comes by way of baptism, but therein lies a distinction between Roman Catholics and protestants anyways.

Oh, and the two wills part, I hope you do not believe that there are two persons in the hypostatic union. I think there was one person, and therefore only one will in Jesus Christ. However, I'm open to correction from the Scriptures or plain reason.
No there are not two Persons in Jesus Christ. Jesus is One Person, the Second Person of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity, that is, God the Son. Jesus is a Divine Person, Eternal and Uncreated as to his Divinity.

In assuming a real Human Nature, Jesus has a real human rational soul with a real human free will.

Since Jesus is both Divine and Human, Jesus has a Divine Will and a Human Will and He loved with a real Human Heart (which we call the Sacred Heart of Jesus).

To underscore everything, ... people are not used to hearing this but Jesus is not, never was, and never will be a Human Person. He is God the Son, a Divine Person. This is why the bottom line question of the Gospels is "WHO do you say that I am?"

God bless you, bsd058.
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Blessed are those who hear the voice of the Good Shepherd.

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  #8  
Unread 22nd November 2012, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by AHJE View Post
No there are not two Persons in Jesus Christ. Jesus is One Person, the Second Person of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity, that is, God the Son. Jesus is a Divine Person, Eternal and Uncreated as to his Divinity.

In assuming a real Human Nature, Jesus has a real human rational soul with a real human free will.

Since Jesus is both Divine and Human, Jesus has a Divine Will and a Human Will and He loved with a real Human Heart (which we call the Sacred Heart of Jesus).

To underscore everything, ... people are not used to hearing this but Jesus is not, never was, and never will be a Human Person. He is God the Son, a Divine Person. This is why the bottom line question of the Gospels is "WHO do you say that I am?"

God bless you, bsd058.
Personhood is different from essence. A person can be a person without being divine or human. Jesus was a divine person only before the incarnation. He became a human person at the incarnation without ceasing to be a divine person as well. He merely added to himself humanness. So I might disagree slightly with you there.

The "who" that Jesus was asking about was in fact the "Son of God," a person who is seen as holding the divine essence with the Father and the Spirit, thereby implying that he was Divine, but he was also human.
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Unread 23rd November 2012, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by bsd058 View Post
... Jesus was a divine person only before the incarnation. He became a human person at the incarnation without ceasing to be a divine person as well. He merely added to himself humanness. ...
The problem with this, bsd058, is that you are in effect saying that in the Son, there are 2 Persons.

Jesus can have a human nature, but He is not a Human Person. His Personhood is Divine. He is God the Son.

This is why we can say that Mary is the Mother of God. Because she is the Mother of the Person of Jesus Christ ... God the Son, Immanuel.

God bless you.
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Blessed are those who hear the voice of the Good Shepherd.

"And how shall they preach unless they be sent, ..."? (see Rom. 10:15)
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Unread 23rd November 2012, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by AHJE View Post
The problem with this, bsd058, is that you are in effect saying that in the Son, there are 2 Persons.

Jesus can have a human nature, but He is not a Human Person. His Personhood is Divine. He is God the Son.

This is why we can say that Mary is the Mother of God. Because she is the Mother of the Person of Jesus Christ ... God the Son, Immanuel.

God bless you.
Ahh! You got me! Theotokos!! Thanks for the correction. I too believe Mary carried the divine person. Thank you.
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