Creation & EvolutionForum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too.
... because I believe that in order to refute it you would have to debunk the sources' sources.
1. The Fossil Record...Evolutionists have constructed the Geologic Column in order to illustrate the supposed progression of "primitive" life forms to "more complex" systems we observe today. Yet, "since only a small percentage of the earth's surface obeys even a portion of the geologic column the claim of their having taken place to form a continuum of rock/life/time over the earth is therefore a fantastic and imaginative contrivance.1" "[T]he lack of transitional series cannot be explained as being due to the scarcity of material. The deficiencies are real, they will never be filled."2 This supposed column is actually saturated with "polystrate fossils" (fossils extending from one geologic layer to another) that tie all the layers to one time-frame. "[T]o the unprejudiced, the fossil record of plants is in favor of special creation." 3
2. Decay of Earth's Magnetic Field... Dr. Thomas Barnes, Emeritus Professor of Physics at the University of Texas at El Paso, has published the definitive work in this field.4 Scientific observations since 1829 have shown that the earth's magnetic field has been measurably decaying at an exponential rate, demonstrating its half-life to be approximately 1,400 years. In practical application its strength 20,000 years ago would approximate that of a magnetic star. Under those conditions many of the atoms necessary for life processes could not form. These data demonstrate that earth's entire history is young, within a few thousand of years.
3. The Global Flood... The Biblical record clearly describes a global Flood during Noah's day. Additionally, there are hundreds of Flood traditions handed down through cultures all over the world. 5 M.E. Clark and Henry Voss have demonstrated the scientific validity of such a Flood providing the sedimentary layering we see on every continent. 6 Secular scholars report very rapid sedimentation and periods of great carbonate deposition in earth's sedimentary layers..7 It is now possible to prove the historical reality of the Biblical Flood.8
4. Population Statistics...World population growth rate in recent times is about 2% per year. Practicable application of growth rate throughout human history would be about half that number. Wars, disease, famine, etc. have wiped out approximately one third of the population on average every 82 years. Starting with eight people, and applying these growth rates since the Flood of Noah's day (about 4500 years ago) would give a total human population at just under six billion people. However, application on an evolutionary time scale runs into major difficulties. Starting with one "couple" just 41,000 years ago would give us a total population of 2 x 1089. 9 The universe does not have space to hold so many bodies.
5. Radio Halos...Physicist Robert Gentry has reported isolated radio halos of polonuim-214 in crystalline granite. The half-life of this element is 0.000164 seconds! To record the existence of this element in such short time span, the granite must be in crystalline state instantaneously.10 This runs counter to evolutionary estimates of 300 million years for granite to form.
6. Human Artifacts throughout the Geologic Column...Man-made artifacts - such as the hammer in Cretaceous rock, a human sandal print with trilobite in Cambrian rock, human footprints and a handprint in Cretaceous rock – point to the fact that all the supposed geologic periods actually occurred at the same time in the recent past.11
7. Helium Content in Earth's Atmosphere... Physicist Melvin Cook, Nobel Prize medalist found that helium-4 enters our atmosphere from solar wind and radioactive decay of uranium. At present rates our atmosphere would accumulate current helium-4 amounts in less than 10,000 years.12
8. Expansion of Space Fabric...Astronomical estimates of the distance to various galaxies gives conflicting data.13 The Biblical Record refers to the expansion of space by the Creator14. Astrophysicist Russell Humphries demonstrates that such space expansion would dilate time in distant space.15 This could explain a recent creation with great distances to the stars.
9. Design in Living Systems...A living cell is so awesomely complex that its interdependent components stagger the imagination and defy evolutionary explanations. A minimal cell contains over 60,000 proteins of 100 different configurations.16 The chance of this assemblage occurring by chance is 1 in 10 4,478,296 .17
10. Design in the Human Brain...The human brain is the most complicated structure in the known universe.18 It contains over 100 billion cells, each with over 50,000 neuron connections to other brain cells.19 This structure receives over 100 million separate signals from the total human body every second. If we learned something new every second of our lives, it would take three million years to exhaust the capacity of the human brain. 20 In addition to conscious thought, people can actually reason, anticipate consequences, and devise plans - all without knowing they are doing so.21
1Woodmorappe, John, "The Essential Non-Existence of the Evolutionary Uniformitarian Geologic Column: A Quantitative Assessment," Creation Research Society Quarterly, vol. 18, no.1 (Terre Haute, Indiana, June 1981),pp. 46-71
2 Nilsson, N. Heribert, as quoted in Arthur C. Custance, The Earth Before Man, Part II, Doorway Papers, no. 20 (Ontario, Canada: Doorway Publications), p. 51
3Corner, E.J.H., Contemporary Botanical Thought, ed. A.M. MacLeod and L.S. Cobley (Chicago: Quadrangle Books, 1961), p. 97
4Barnes, Thomas, ICR Technical Monograph #4, Origin and Destiny of the Earth's Magnetic Field (2nd edition, 1983)
5Blick, Edward, A Scientific Analysis of Genesis (Oklahoma City: Hearthstone, 1991) p. 103
6Clark, M.E. and Voss, H.D., "Fluid Mechanic Examination of the Tial Mechanism for Producing Mega-Sedimantary Layering" (Third International Conference on Creation, Pittsburg, July 1994)
7Ager, Derek, The Nature of the Stratigraphical Record (New York: John Wiley and Sons) p. 43 and p. 86
8West, John Anthony, Serpent in the Sky: The High Wisdom of Ancient Egypt (New York: Julian Press, 1987) pp. 13-14
11 Baugh, Carl, Why Do Men Believe Evolution AGAINST ALL ODDS? (Oklahoma City: Hearthstone, 1999)
12Cook, Melvin, "Where is The Earth's Radiogenic Helium?" Nature, Vol. 179, p. 213
13Cowan, R., "Further Evidence of a Youthful Universe," Science News, Vol. 148, p. 166
14Psalm 104:2; Isaiah 40:22
15Humphries, Russell, Starlight and Time (Green Forest, AR: Master Books, 1994)
16Denton, Michael, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis (Bethesda, Maryland: Adler & Adler, 1986) p. 263
17 Mastropaolo, Joseph, "Evolution Is Biologically Impossible," Impact # 317 (El Cajon, CA: Institute For Creation Research,1999) p. 4
18Restak, Richard, The Brain: The Last Frontier, 1979, p. 390
19The Brain, Our Universe Within, PBS Video
20Wonders of God's Creation, Moody Video Series
21Weiss, Joseph, "Unconscious Mental Functioning," Scientific American, March 1990, p. 103
__________________ "If we begin with certainties, we shall end in doubts; if we begin with doubts, and are patient, we shall end in certainties."
-Marcus Aurelius
Most people will recognize these are PRATT list items. For new people, the PRATT list stands for Points Refuted A Thousand Times. In other words, most of this Evidence has been disproved many times, often quite a few years ago. Yet for some reason they are still being used.
“1. The Fossil Record...”
“Evolutionists have constructed the Geologic Column in order to illustrate the supposed progression of "primitive" life forms to "more complex" systems we observe today.”
Actually the Geological Column came about before the theory of Evolution,
“Smith’s "tabular view of the main features of the subject" was to develop into the Geologic Column and the Geologic Time Scale of classical geological science. By 1812 it had become a formal Table to serve as an annotated legend - a detailed index to Smith’s great map of England, Wales and part of Scotland, then in preparation” http://www.unh.edu/esci/tableexplan.html
This was Before Darwin's famous “Origin of the Species”
"Scientifically, the major challenge facing Flood geologists is the regularity of the fossil record. If the flood and its aftermath were responsible for the deposition of the fossil record, would not plants and animals be all jumbled together? Sometimes fossils are jumbled together .... Still, the majority of fossils are associated consistently with identifiable systems such as the Cambrian, Ordovician, etc." [G. Parker, The Fossil Record in Christian Perspective, p. 77 in Wonderly, Neglect of Geologic Data, p. 59] http://www.holysmoke.org/cretins/geo-col.htm
Even creationist realize the organization of the Fossil record, in the geological column and the problem it posses to flood geology.
“[T]he lack of transitional series cannot be explained as being due to the scarcity of material.”
Of course, there is not a lack of transitional fossils. Just a lack of wanting to listen. Often when a transitional fossil is found, creationist just wave it away, and say, “that’s not a transitional fossil.
As I posted earlier, even creationist realize that the geological column is organized in a way that supports evolution.
”This supposed column is actually saturated with "polystrate fossils" (fossils extending from one geologic layer to another) that tie all the layers to one time-frame.”
Polystrate fossils were never a problem.
“Well, they were not a problem to explain in the 19th century, and are still not a problem now. John William Dawson (1868) described a classic Carboniferous-age locality at Joggins, Nova Scotia, where there are upright giant lycopod trees up to a few meters tall preserved mainly in river-deposited sandstones. These trees have extensive root systems with rootlets that penetrate into the underlying sediment, which is either a coal seam (i.e. compressed plant material), or an intensely-rooted sandstone or mudstone (i.e. a soil horizon). Dawson considered and rejected anything but an in situ formation for these fossils, and his interpretation is closely similar to current interpretations of sediments deposited on river floodplains. An interesting feature of these examples is the presence of vertebrate fossils (mostly small reptiles) within the infilling of the stumps.
The reason I am using Dawson rather than a more recent reference is to emphasize that many supposed "problems" with conventional geology were solved more than 100 years ago using very basic principles. The people suggesting these "problems" exist are so out of date that even 19th century literature refutes their presentations.” http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/polystrate/trees.html
Visit the link for more information about how it was solved.
”2. Decay of Earth's Magnetic Field... “
“Scientific observations since 1829 have shown that the earth's magnetic field has been measurably decaying at an exponential rate, demonstrating its half-life to be approximately 1,400 years. ”
There are some major flaws in this work.
First, He studied Only the Dipole of the Magnetic field. This is only part of the field, the same data he used, shows that the nondipole component of the magnetic field increased as the dipole component decreased. Invalidating his claim that its Decaying.
Second, He took evidence from the course of 150 years and stretched them out to 10,000 or 20,000 years. This is not correct, as we can see below.
Third,
“Studies of the magnetic field as recorded in dated rocks and pottery have shown that the dipole moment actually fluctuates over periods of a few thousand years and that decreases in field intensity are eventually followed by increases. For example, the archaeomagnetic data show that the dipole field was about 20% weaker than the present field 6,500 years ago and about 45% stronger than the present field about 3000 years ago (McElhinny and Senanayake, 1982).
(Dalrymple, 1992, p.16)” http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...tic_field.html
So, as we can see, a constant dipole decay rate is not even true.
“In practical application its strength 20,000 years ago would approximate that of a magnetic star.”
Nope, see above. He stretched out bad research way beyond what it could predict.
”3. The Global Flood...”
The Biblical record clearly describes a global Flood during Noah's day. Additionally, there are hundreds of Flood traditions handed down through cultures all over the world. “
A nice proof that the global flood did not exists.
First of all, flood myths would be expected as many civilizations started near water ways or seas. A flood of that water way would either be considered life giving (like the egyptians) or catastrophic, especially to a people who didn’t realize how big the world really was. Its interesting to note that not all civilizations have flood myths.
Second, if the global flood killed all but 8 people, there should not be all these different flood myths from all these civilizations. They all should have Died. Going along with that, we should find civilizations that just Stopped dead. All civilization in china should have stopped dead, then a completely new culture should have emerged. It didn’t.
“M.E. Clark and Henry Voss have demonstrated the scientific validity of such a Flood providing the sedimentary layering we see on every continent.”
Of course, this ignores all the layering that could not have come from a flood, yet are said to have been created by the flood. hydraulic sorting does not explain the fossil record.
“It is now possible to prove the historical reality of the Biblical Flood.”
As long as you ignore all the evidence against it. It would be interesting to note, that geologists accepted that the global flood did not happen, Before Darwin book was ever written.
”4. Population Statistics...”
World population growth rate in recent times is about 2% per year. Practicable application of growth rate throughout human history would be about half that number. Wars, disease, famine, etc. have wiped out approximately one third of the population on average every 82 years. Starting with eight people, and applying these growth rates since the Flood of Noah's day (about 4500 years ago) would give a total human population at just under six billion people.”
P = starting population (8 after the flood)
r = rate of growth
n = number of years since flood.
If the flood was 4500 years ago, we need a growth rate of 0.455% or 0.00455 to reach almost 6 billion people today,
So the equation would look like this, 8(1+0.00455)^4500=5,958,006,194 or 6 billion.
This produces some interesting results.
•1000 years after the flood, there is a total world population of 749 people.
•2500 years after the flood, there is a total world population of 679,180 people.
•2600 years after the flood, there is a total world population of 1,069,401 people.
Now whats so amazing about that? Well, 2500 years after the flood, is also 2000 years ago. Around the time when Jesus was said to have been born. That right, when jesus was born, there was an Entire world population of 679,180. A little over half a million people populated the Entire world, that includes china, The Americas, the Roman Empire, etc.
Whats so special about 2600 years after the flood, well that would be around 100 AD,
“At the zenith of the Roman empire (2nd century A.D.)... ... The population was at least 70 million and may have been in excess of 100 million. The city of Rome itself was home to more than 1 million inhabitants.” http://www.sentex.net/~ajy/facts/romanemp.html
So, the entire world population was apparently in Rome and nowhere else.
If any of this sounds a bit funny, that because it is. The worlds growth rate does not stay a constant number. It is thought that the large world growth rate is based on recent technological advances. In the past, many constraints such as food and disease have kept the growth rate very close to 0, if not sometimes in the negative and thus we would not have over grown the world. We are only now able to out grow the world because we can supply ourselves with lots of food, and rid ourselves of many diseases.
”5. Radio Halos...”
“Physicist Robert Gentry has reported isolated radio halos of polonuim-214 in crystalline granite.”
“Summary/Conclusions
Gentry's polonium halo hypothesis for a young Earth fails all tests. Gentry's entire thesis is built on a compounded set of assumptions. He is unable to demonstrate that concentric haloes in mica are caused uniquely by alpha particles resulting from the decay of polonium isotopes. His samples are not from "primordial" pieces of the Earth's original crust, but from rocks which have been extensively reworked. Finally, his hypothesis cannot accommodate the many alternative lines of evidence that demonstrate a great age for the Earth. Gentry rationalizes any evidence which contradicts his hypothesis by proposing three "singularities" - one time divine interventions - over the past 6000 years. Of course, supernatural events and processes fall outside the realm of scientific investigations to address. As with the idea of variable radioactive decay rates, once Gentry moves beyond the realm of physical laws, his arguments fail to have any scientific usefulness. If divine action is necessary to fit the halo hypothesis into some consistent model of Earth history, why waste all that time trying to argue about the origins of the haloes based on current scientific theory? This is where most Creationist arguments break down when they try to adopt the language and trappings of science. Trying to prove a religious premise is itself an act of faith, not science.” http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/po-halos/gentry.html
“6. Human Artifacts throughout the Geologic Column...”
“Man-made artifacts - such as the hammer in Cretaceous rock, a human sandal print with trilobite in Cambrian rock, human footprints and a handprint in Cretaceous rock
Hammer:
As with all extraordinary claims, the burden of proof is on those making the claims, not on those questioning them. Despite some creationist assertions that the hammer is a dramatic pre-Flood relic, no clear evidence linking the hammer to any ancient formation has been presented. Moreover, the hammer's artistic style and the condition of the handle suggest a historically recent age. It may well have been dropped by a local worker within the last few hundred years, after which dissolved sediment hardened into a concretion around it. Unless Baugh or others can provide rigorous evidence that the hammer was once naturally situated in a pre-Quaternary stratum, it remains merely a curiosity, not a reliable out-of-place artifact. http://members.aol.com/paluxy2/hammer.htm
For an indepth look, I would recommend visiting the site.
Sandal Print with Trilobite:
“The specimen does contain several real trilobites, but the "print" itself is questionable on several accounts.
Upon closer inspection the overall shape is seen to consist of a spall pattern in a concretion-like slab, similar to others in the area. There is no evidence that it was ever part of a striding sequence, nor evidence that it was ever on an exposed bedding plane. The "print" is very shallow and shows no sign of pressure deformation nor foot movement at its margin. The supposed "heel" demarcation is actually a crack that runs across the entire slab, beyond the boundary of the supposed print. The slight relief difference at this point is due to slight movement along the crack line (Conrad, 1981; Stokes, 1986).” http://members.aol.com/paluxy2/meister.htm
For an indepth look, I would recommend visiting the site.
Second part. This is a great example of why creationists love verbal debates. It took less than a page to throw out the claims, yet two posts to answer them.
--------------------- “7. Helium Content in Earth's Atmosphere... “
“Physicist Melvin Cook, Nobel Prize medalist found that helium-4 enters our atmosphere from solar wind and radioactive decay of uranium. At present rates our atmosphere would accumulate current helium-4 amounts in less than 10,000 years.12”
Not if there is a way for the Helium 4 to escape our atmosphere. There is.
Heat can give the helium enough energy to escape the atmosphere. Then there are also polar winds,
“8. Expansion of Space Fabric...”
“ Astrophysicist Russell Humphries demonstrates that such space expansion would dilate time in distant space.15 This could explain a recent creation with great distances to the stars.”
of course, all of these expansions to make things look older than they are, would need to be Major expansions. This isn’t the differences that scientists are debating over. To try and get 6000 years to look 14.5 billion years, these expansions need to speed things up by At Least 2,416,666.6 Times.
“9. Design in Living Systems...”
“The chance of this assemblage [a cell] occurring by chance is 1 in 10 4,478,296 .17”
Evolution is not based totally on chance, but is a mechanism which builds over time. Thus calculating the chances of everything in a cell coming together at once, by pure chance, has No bearing on Evolution.
An interesting aspect of calculating chance is that you can calculate yourself right out of existence. The chance that you would be born, is much lower than the calculations they have done. Astronomically small. Thus, you should not exist. Yet you do. Hmm...
“10. Design in the Human Brain...”
Just because something looks complex, does Not mean it Must have an intelligent Designer.
Yes this ended up very long but, as you can see, it takes longer to refute the claims, than it does to make them. As you can see, these are not valid pieces of evidence.
I refuted it using the ever-so helpful talkorigins bogus claims archive.
But, I will also post yours, arikay, just for fun.
__________________ "If we begin with certainties, we shall end in doubts; if we begin with doubts, and are patient, we shall end in certainties."
-Marcus Aurelius
Earth's magnetic field. Note: Even modern day creationists admit to the errors in Barne's hypothesis. Humphreys was forced to admit that reversals do occur, but then he was forced to fudge the actual data to fit it into a YE scenario. I've written a detailed explanation of Humphreys bogus claims
Starting with one "couple" just 41,000 years ago would give us a total population of 2 x 1089. 9 The universe does not have space to hold so many bodies.
I seem to be in charge of math today.
2 x 1089 = 2178
2178 people--we have that many people living on my campus. Come on, what's the problem?
Or is that 2 to the 1089th power?
__________________ Luke 7:47 - So I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven; hence, she has shown great love. But the one to whom little is forgiven, loves little.
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