Creation & EvolutionForum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too.
I didn't get through the entire post but in part of it I note that he has perceived a trend for anti YEC misinformation to be also move toward anti religion.
If I perceive that correctly I understand what he is going through. I have never been a YEC, but anti religion comments are quite common in some threads here. I think that is counter productive in revealing the sad truth that the YEC movement is riddled with deliberate misrepresentations. Atheists are apparently unwittingly pursuing the wrong objective.
I think the best approach perhaps, is to concentrate specifically on the misrepresentations and dispense with arguments that question religious beliefs. In other words, show what is being misrepresented and how, rather than just presenting scientific evidence for evolution and and an old earth.
Thoughts?
I agree that attacking religion is counterproductive, but I'm not entirely sure what you mean by the last paragraph. It kind of sounds like you're saying that evidence for an old earth is an argument questioning religious beliefs? We have a history of talking past each other, so I'm pretty sure I'm missing something here.
Also, what do you do when deeply held religious beliefs are almost inseparably intertwined with the misrepresentations of science? E.g. you may be pointing out how YEC resources get the science of radiometric dating wrong, but a YEC reading your words may well perceive this as an attack against their literalist belief.
Originally Posted by Jro
This just reads like a crazed rant honestly.
I was willing to listen to him about the anti-religion thing, but then it just started getting weird. I gave up after he called Sandra Fluck something the profanity filter won't let me type out over including contraception in health insurance plans. While the free contraception issue might be ethically tricky with religious organisations, calling her derogatory names and assuming all kinds of things about her sex life because of one stance she took is nothing but blind prejudice. (Not to mention not being terribly tolerant of "dissent")
Also, having witnessed much of his global warming debate with thaumaturgy, I find this particular paragraph very telling:
One of the things that I have increasingly become concerned with in modern society is the push for conformity by the intellectual 'elite' all of whom think they are independent thinkers but all of whom think the same thing, and few of whom can tolerate dissent. There seems to be no independent thought allowed. The view that YEC must be crushed goes along with another disturbing trend, that modern science is no longer about finding truth, it is about conformity rather than a spirit of enquiry and challenge--everyone MUST believe global warming and all its dire consequences.
This man has been a practicing scientist for decades. Right, in industry and not academia, but he must have seen some scientific debate. He must have seen how difficult it can be to get scientists to agree on anything. When there is such overwhelming consensus on an issue that started out as controversial, there is a reason. To me, the above just sounds like he's got a chip on his shoulder because his pet hypothesis isn't taken seriously. Quoting a Daily Fail article about one stupid thing one professor may or may not have really said doesn't help his case.
What can I say. I like Morton's Demon and IIRC he had some neat resources on his site... but tantrums like this make me not miss his contribution as much as I might otherwise have.
__________________ "There is much we do not understand about the history of life, and the same will be true of our grandchildren. But, then, if we knew all there was to know, scientific interest would cease. Textbooks may portray science as a codification of facts, but it is really a disciplined way of asking about the unknown." - A.H. Knoll, Life on a Young Planet
"[G]ood and evil are names for what people do, not for what they are." Philip Pullman, The Amber Spyglass
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I think I have heard of some states considering a ban on the practice. Not sure where that stands right now. In this case, it can be a physical threat to the child. This is more about risk than religion.
If God told them it was OK, nothing else is needed. Those that don't like it are overruled.
"Jewish and Muslim organisations have staged a joint protest in the German capital Berlin over a regional court's ruling that the circumcision of young boys constituted bodily harm."
And why do you think a lawsuit was filed? From your own source:
"The lawsuit accuses the school district of violating the pupils' constitutional right to free speech and violating the Constitution's establishment clause, which prohibits excessive government entanglement with religion."
Better to violate a child's right who doesn't like it than to force kids to be violated for loving God in my opinion. Otherwise the only option is to have Christians start really acting like they are in enemy territory, and vote with their feet, etc. Shut it down for all I care. The whole pagan school system, and the country! Better to have some brands (maybe states?) snatched from the fire than to have the whole system/country go to hell in a handbasket.
Obviously, it is not illegal to take a Bible to school. If the allegations are true, that teacher may very well lose her job and possible her career.
The foxes are guarding the hen house apparently. The clear trend has been toward a slide to darkness, antichrist spirit, and depravity and oppression. With leaders at the top fomenting this ungodly stuff, the process can only speed up exponentially. Obamafication.
And the teacher is wrong. It is not inappropriate for students to read the Bible during class if the class time is opened up for free reading. It is not illegal for a student to read a Bible at school.
Christians are to preach the gospel. That is part of being one. That is not allowed in school or hardly anywhere else like government, etc. Whether some kid could conceal a bible and not get arrested because he never pulled it out is silly.
That is not what you said. You said:
"Can parents not allow their brainwashed daughter to not kill her child?"
An abortion is not killing a child.
Yes it is. But I think that is not allowed to be discussed here.
Women under the age of 18 are allowed to get abortions without consent because incest can be involved.
Depends on the state/country. Basically the parent is sidelined totally in many places and the trend is that way more and more.
Completely false.
No, true. If someone goes on TV or school property or the white house, or etc etc and preaches against Sodom marriages, evolution, killing babies, and advocates spanking kids, and etc, they will be in deep doo doo.
__________________ Kids...you have authority from God Almighty to disbelieve your teachers and parents and anyone else who claims God did not create the earth and all that live on it.
No, true. If someone goes on TV or school property or the white house, or etc etc and preaches against Sodom marriages, evolution, killing babies, and advocates spanking kids, and etc, they will be in deep doo doo.
Is Pat Robertson in "deep doo doo"? When was the date of his arrest? Did I miss that?
Here are some of his preachings on TV:
__________________ "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours" Stephen H. Roberts
If God told them it was OK, nothing else is needed.
That leads to people flying airplanes into buildings.
"Jewish and Muslim organisations have staged a joint protest in the German capital Berlin over a regional court's ruling that the circumcision of young boys constituted bodily harm."
I think we can both agree that foreign governments are less friendly to christians. For example, you can be put in prison for openly evangelizing in China. I am sure that christians are severely persecuted in some Muslim countries (and just the opposite in some Western countries).
Better to violate a child's right who doesn't like it than to force kids to be violated for loving God in my opinion. Otherwise the only option is to have Christians start really acting like they are in enemy territory, and vote with their feet, etc. Shut it down for all I care. The whole pagan school system, and the country! Better to have some brands (maybe states?) snatched from the fire than to have the whole system/country go to hell in a handbasket.
The pagan school system? What little credibility you had is gone now.
The foxes are guarding the hen house apparently. The clear trend has been toward a slide to darkness, antichrist spirit, and depravity and oppression. With leaders at the top fomenting this ungodly stuff, the process can only speed up exponentially. Obamafication.
Obama is a christian, or were you unaware of that?
Christians are to preach the gospel. That is part of being one. That is not allowed in school or hardly anywhere else like government, etc. Whether some kid could conceal a bible and not get arrested because he never pulled it out is silly.
It is not illegal in the US for students to read the Bible at school. Period. They are not getting arrested for reading the Bible. You can cry wolf all you want, but we can see right through it.
__________________ “Because they know not the forces of nature, and in order that they may have comrades in their ignorance, they suffer not that others should search out anything, and would have us believe like rustics and ask no reason...But we ask in all things a reason must be sought.” --William of Conches (c. 1090 – after 1154)
Is Pat Robertson in "deep doo doo"? When was the date of his arrest? Did I miss that?
Here are some of his preachings on TV:
Perhaps he has good lawyers and his wacko opinions are tolerated because they include weird assassinations?
__________________ Kids...you have authority from God Almighty to disbelieve your teachers and parents and anyone else who claims God did not create the earth and all that live on it.
Can a teacher refuse to teach lies and ungodly things?
Yes, they can. She might lose her job because that is part of the curriculum required by state law, though. The curriculum is designed to be secular, like the constitution says it should. My child should not have to lag behind in science just because you raised yours to be insecure in their religious beliefs.
Originally Posted by dad
Can a child bring a bible to school?
Yep, they can, actually. I read some of the Bible in high school as a historical document, not a religious one. I had no problem with it, and that's coming from one of the few atheists/agnostics here that truly dislike religion.
Originally Posted by dad
Can parents not allow their brainwashed daughter to not kill her child?
Yup, they can.
Originally Posted by dad
Can one preach what the bible says on marriage publicly
Yup. When I went to the University of Texas-Austin we had a crazy giving a fire and brimstone speech almost every day outside the science building. I found him amusing but respected his right to preach about it publicly.
Originally Posted by dad
and take measure to keep the gleefully perverted from their ranks?
Doesn't seem to be working, lots of religious pedophiles out there. Try harder to do so, for all of us.
Originally Posted by dad
The believers are forced more and more into hiding and secrecy like the catacombs of Rome.
One of the most heavily trafficked streets in my town is full of churches. These churches are right in front of the street, also, not hidden behind some other buildings. They are beautiful buildings and I have no problem with them. Again, this is from one of the more anti-religious persons in this forum.
Originally Posted by dad
I would be surprised if the next several years were not marked by growing real persecution, evil oppressive laws, open blasphemy, and such inevitable results of advanced decay.
Only in your crazy mind, freedom of religion is very much alive. Funny thing about the U.S. is that republicans believe the constitution is inerrant and should be followed unquestionably... until it comes to separation of church and state.
Originally Posted by dad
Good news for believers!!! Very good news. People get ready, there's a train a comin.....and to hell with the US and it's leadership.
Then leave. I'll even pay for your plane ticket. No one wants a traitor in our country.
That leads to people flying airplanes into buildings.
Scripture and verse? We are not talking about non founding beliefs here are we? If so we can start with atheism and science so called. They whacked em by the cities full, literally. A Christian martyr lays down his life to save as many as possible. Those that are suicide bombers lay down their life to kill as many as possible. Big difference!
That's not the US.
So? Does TV and movies and Obama speeches get limited to the US??
I think we can both agree that foreign governments are less friendly to christians. For example, you can be put in prison for openly evangelizing in China. I am sure that christians are severely persecuted in some Muslim countries (and just the opposite in some Western countries).
The trend ic clear and insidious and irreversible.
The pagan school system? What little credibility you had is gone now.
Right, the Satanic godless school system.
Obama is a christian, or were you unaware of that?
His policies are not are you aware of that? This isn't personal (unless the guy sets up an abomination on the temple mount or something)
It is not illegal in the US for students to read the Bible at school. Period. They are not getting arrested for reading the Bible. You can cry wolf all you want, but we can see right through it.
"
EDMONTON, Alberta, February 23, 2012 (LifeSiteNews.com) – Under Alberta’s new Education Act, homeschoolers and faith-based schools will not be permitted to teach that ****sexual acts are sinful as part of their academic program, says the spokesperson for Education Minister Thomas Lukaszuk.
“Whatever the nature of schooling – homeschool, private school, Catholic school – we do not tolerate disrespect for differences,” Donna McColl, Lukaszuk’s assistant director of communications, told LifeSiteNews on Wednesday evening."
"
¶ At Pace High School near Pensacola, Fla., teachers cited the Bible as fact in class and one teacher preached to students with a bullhorn as they arrived at school. In litigation that ended in July, the Santa Rosa County district agreed to stop promotion of religion but said that teachers could pray in private settings and could use expressions like “God bless you.”
¶ In Sumner County, Tenn., teachers led students in prayer and Bible study, and allowed Gideons International to distribute Bibles during school hours. Officials agreed this month to end the practices.
¶ In Baltimore, under threat of a lawsuit last spring, district officials stopped a school principal from holding prayer services to help students prepare for a standardized test.
“We continue to see, on a regular basis across the country, public school officials who include prayer in school events, try to convert students and engage in other promotion of religion,” said Heather Weaver, a lawyer with the A.C.L.U.’s program on religious freedom.
“In recent years, public school officials have engaged in these activities even more aggressively,” Ms. Weaver added.
Christian legal advocates counter that such plain violations are far less common than the opposite problem: overzealous officials trying to cleanse the schools of religion, punishing students for protected speech like personal prayer or handing out devotional messages to their friends.
“The free-speech rights of students and teachers are under an all-out assault,” said Kelly Shackelford, president of the Liberty Institute, a Christian legal group in Plano, Tex. He described one continuing legal case in which “children had pencils ripped out of their hands” because they carried a Christian message and students were “banned from writing Merry Christmas to the soldiers.”
Despite such disputes, legal religious expression is more present in schools now than it has been for decades, said Charles Haynes, a senior scholar at the First Amendment Center in Washington who advises school districts and helped develop teacher guidelines that are consistent with the law. It has been firmly established, he said, that students may pray if it is not disruptive, and can share their faith with other students. Teachers may pray with other teachers outside of class, though not in front of students during school hours.
But gray areas persist and dozens of bitter disputes erupt every year over the propriety of student prayers at graduations and football games (usually ruled illegal if given over a loudspeaker to a captive audience) or whether children can hand out written prayers at a Christmas party (permissible in theory, some experts say, but courts have allowed school officials to make judgments based on the circumstances).
Watchdog groups like the A.C.L.U., Americans United for Separation of Church and State and the Freedom From Religion Foundation say that in the last few years, they have learned more often about what they call blatant violations like the South Carolina rally. It is unclear, they say, whether the number of such events is growing, or whether they are now more likely to come to light. But still, these advocates say, even when clear violations occur, concerned families are often reluctant to bring legal challenges because they fear social hostility.
The September prayer rally at New Heights Middle School in Jefferson had deep support in the community. With a population of 47,000, Chesterfield County supports at least 200 Christian churches, according to Paul Wood Jr., pastor of the First United Methodist Church in Cheraw, S.C.
“There’s not a lot of religious diversity here, so it becomes hard for people to believe that everybody isn’t a Christian,” said Mr. Wood, who was perhaps the only pastor in the county to publicly question the rally.
The students were addressed by Christian Chapman of Charlotte, N.C., who describes himself as a “traveling evangelist” and often speaks at schools, he said in an interview.
“I definitely think that we should try to get our relationship with Christ back into the schools,” said Mr. Chapman, 43. “Jesus represents everything we want our students to live by.”
For non-Christians to hear this message, he said, is no worse than Bible believers being forced to hear about evolution every day."
__________________ Kids...you have authority from God Almighty to disbelieve your teachers and parents and anyone else who claims God did not create the earth and all that live on it.
Perhaps he has good lawyers and his wacko opinions are tolerated because they include weird assassinations?
Oh, and exactly why are his opinions "wacko"? They are exactly the same as yours:
Originally Posted by dad
preaches against Sodom marriages, evolution, killing babies, and advocates spanking kids, and etc, they will be in deep doo doo.
But my question is not even about his opinions, I could care less if they are right or wrong (on the context of this thread). What I want to point out is that there is no Christian "persecution" as you keep claiming. If there was, Pat (and many others) would be in jail somewhere by now.
__________________ "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours" Stephen H. Roberts
EDMONTON, Alberta, February 23, 2012 (LifeSiteNews.com) – Under Alberta’s new Education Act, homeschoolers and faith-based schools will not be permitted to teach that ****sexual acts are sinful as part of their academic program, says the spokesperson for Education Minister Thomas Lukaszuk.
Good for them. Similarly, schools should not teach that women that don't dress like this are sinners:
Things like that should be taught in a religious setting, you know, Churches, Synagogues, Mosques, there are many of those around.
__________________ "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours" Stephen H. Roberts
Yes, they can. She might lose her job because that is part of the curriculum required by state law, though. The curriculum is designed to be secular, like the constitution says it should. My child should not have to lag behind in science just because you raised yours to be insecure in their religious beliefs.
Then never the two should mingle.
Yep, they can, actually. I read some of the Bible in high school as a historical document, not a religious one. I had no problem with it, and that's coming from one of the few atheists/agnostics here that truly dislike religion.
In other words it cannot be read for what it is. And even your exceptions are small compared to the barrage of other gods set up and promoted nonstop in the sewers of education so called. But hey that is just my opinion
Yup, they can.
Yup. When I went to the University of Texas-Austin we had a crazy giving a fire and brimstone speech almost every day outside the science building. I found him amusing but respected his right to preach about it publicly.
Good thing you were not in a kill clinic.
Doesn't seem to be working, lots of religious pedophiles out there. Try harder to do so, for all of us.
True.
One of the most heavily trafficked streets in my town is full of churches. These churches are right in front of the street, also, not hidden behind some other buildings. They are beautiful buildings and I have no problem with them. Again, this is from one of the more anti-religious persons in this forum.
OK. I don't go to church so that doesn't do much for me.
Only in your crazy mind, freedom of religion is very much alive. Funny thing about the U.S. is that republicans believe the constitution is inerrant and should be followed unquestionably... until it comes to separation of church and state.
Maybe folks living in the US are under some illusion of freedom. Not my problem.
Then leave. I'll even pay for your plane ticket. No one wants a traitor in our country.
A country that is traitor to God and oppresses kids is what ought to go away.
__________________ Kids...you have authority from God Almighty to disbelieve your teachers and parents and anyone else who claims God did not create the earth and all that live on it.
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