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  #51  
Unread 3rd November 2012, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by AV1611VET View Post
Your colorless opinion of Mr. Hovind is noted.

If that's what science eventually does to a person, then you've been around it too long.

Real science? what's real science? Pluto as our 9th planet? Phlotiston theory being taught? telling citizens it's safe to live in L'Aquila?

Or is real science curing smallpox, the Internet, putting cancer in remission, etc.?
Vacuous canards. Already answered. Next...

Originally Posted by AV1611VET View Post
Science runs on the No True Scotsman principle, doesn't it?
No. Science runs on an established methodology and standard of practice. If it fails to meet the criteria, it's pseudoscience at best.
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  #52  
Unread 3rd November 2012, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by AV1611VET View Post
Your patriotism is unwavering, isn't it?
I stand by it because everything I said about the Hovind video is true.
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  #53  
Unread 3rd November 2012, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Eight Foot Manchild View Post
None of the information we've gleaned about Pluto was impacted in any way by this. A label changed. That's all.

I look forward to correcting you again when you conveniently forget this in the near future.
You can start by correcting this:
Originally Posted by laurele View Post
Only four percent of the IAU voted on the controversial demotion of Pluto, and most are not planetary scientists. The vote was conducted in violation of the IAU's own bylaws on the last day of a two-week conference when most attendees already had left. No absentee voting was allowed. Supporters of the demotion resolution violated the IAU's own bylaws by putting this resolution on the General Assembly floor without first vetting it by the proper committee as IAU rules require. Also, many planetary scientists do not belong to the IAU and therefore had no say in this matter. When professional astronomers objecting to the demotion asked for a reopening of the planet debate at the 2009 IAU General Assembly, the IAU leadership adamantly refused. Why would they refuse to reopen a debate unless they were insecure about their stand? Meanwhile, this issue continues to be debated in other venues, such as the 2008 Great Planet Debate, held at the Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Lab in August 2008 (which I personally attended), the American Geophysical Union, and the European Geophysical Union.


The IAU decision was immediately opposed in a formal petition by hundreds of professional astronomers led by Dr. Alan Stern, Principal Investigator of NASA’s New Horizons mission to Pluto. One reason the IAU definition makes no sense is it says dwarf planets are not planets at all! That is like saying a grizzly bear is not a bear, and it is inconsistent with the use of the term “dwarf” in astronomy, where dwarf stars are still stars, and dwarf galaxies are still galaxies. Also, the IAU definition classifies objects solely by where they are while ignoring what they are. If Earth were in Pluto’s orbit, according to the IAU definition, it would not be a planet either. A definition that takes the same object and makes it a planet in one location and not a planet in another is essentially useless.


Pluto is a planet because it is spherical, meaning it is large enough to be pulled into a round shape by its own gravity--a state known as hydrostatic equilibrium and characteristic of planets, not of shapeless asteroids held together by chemical bonds. These reasons are why many astronomers, lay people, and educators are either ignoring the demotion entirely or working to get it overturned. You can find out more by Googling "Laurel's Pluto Blog."
A decision should not be blindly accepted as some sort of gospel truth because a small number of people decreed it so. The IAU can decree the sky is green, but that doesn't make it any less blue.
Still think a label changed, that's all? there was a lot that went on before that label changed.

And speaking of a simple label change, QV please:
Originally Posted by laurele View Post
One argument often used in favor of demoting Pluto is the fact that another planet was discovered beyond Pluto and that with many more possible small planets in the Kuiper Belt, we could end up with "too many planets" in our solar system. Well, there is no such thing as too many planets. At one point, we thought Jupiter had four moons. Now we know it has 63, and more may be found. Should we limit the number of moons because otherwise, there will be too many to memorize? Should we limit the number of elements in the Periodic Table because kids won't be able to memorize that many? The fact is, memorization is not a very useful learning tool. At one point, we knew little more about the planets than their names and order from the Sun. That is not true today. It is more important that kids understand what distinguishes the different types of planets.

If we use the alternate, broader term that a planet is any non-self-luminous spheroidal body orbiting a star--which many planetary scientists prefer over the IAU definition--we can then use subcategories to distinguish the types of planets. While we previously recognized two subcategories, the terrestrials and the gas giants or jovians, the new discoveries show us there is a third class-the dwarf planets. These are planets because they are large enough to be rounded by their own gravity--a state known as hydrostatic equilibrium--but of the dwarf subcategory because they are not large enough to gravitationally dominate their orbits. In fact, Dr. Alan Stern, who first coined the term "dwarf planet," never intended for dwarf planets to not be considered planets at all. If this one area is amended so the IAU resolution establishes dwarf planets as a subclass of planets, much of the controversy would evaporate.
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  #54  
Unread 3rd November 2012, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Eight Foot Manchild View Post
No. Science runs on an established methodology and standard of practice.
Right ... that's why it changes with the weather, doesn't it?

How many times has the Periodic Table of the Elements been changed? how many times does this 'established methodology and standard of practice' add, delete, or modify a previous 'established methodology and standard of practice'?

Here's your 'established methodology and standard of practice': 74
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  #55  
Unread 3rd November 2012, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by AV1611VET View Post
Still think a label changed, that's all?
Yes. All this mountain of text is that it was a contentious label change, which I already knew when it came up years ago.
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  #56  
Unread 3rd November 2012, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by AV1611VET View Post
Still think a label changed, that's all?
Originally Posted by Eight Foot Manchild View Post
Yes. All this mountain of text is that it was a contentious label change, which I already knew when it came up years ago.
Then your support of a rigged vote behind closed doors is noted.
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  #57  
Unread 3rd November 2012, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by AV1611VET View Post
Right ... that's why it changes with the weather, doesn't it?
No. It changes - or much more often expands - through the furthering of the methodology.
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  #58  
Unread 3rd November 2012, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Eight Foot Manchild View Post
No. It changes - or much more often expands - through the furthering of the methodology.
Then don't tell me science doesn't run on the No True Scotsman principle and expect me to take it with anything other than a grain of salt.
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  #59  
Unread 3rd November 2012, 01:15 PM
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AV, Pluto is no longer a planet because it does not fit the modern definition of a planet. If Pluto is classified as a planet, so must its moons be classified planets as well. Get over it.
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  #60  
Unread 3rd November 2012, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by AV1611VET View Post
Then your support of a rigged vote behind closed doors is noted.
There's nothing to 'support'. That's a category error. You'll really say anything to make it look like you've scored a blow, won't you?

By the way, I haven't forgotten,

Originally Posted by Eight Foot Manchild
Find me a primary scientific source that says that [macroevolution is one animal 'chaning into' another animal]. I dare you.
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