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Origins Theology Forum for the discussion of Creation Science (Young/Old) vs Theistic Evolution. Discussion of Atheistic Evolution should be taken to the Discussion and Debate forums.

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Old 1st November 2012, 11:17 PM
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Idea Moving the Garden East of Eden..Literally: Was Eden Originally in Asia?

Found something recommended to me by one of my sisters in CHrist---and was very amazed at some of the conclusions made on the issue. For maps are powerful when it comes to how we see the world and how we look at one another---especially as it concerns the level of importance we place on groups coming from certain parts of the globe.

And on the issue, one of the resources I plan to use for my children really amazed when it came to discussing possible areas for where Eden used to be. It's entitled 583 - East is Eden: Adam and Eve's Chinese Garden ... - Big Think/ East is Eden: Adam and Eve's Chinese Garden | Strange Maps

As said there (for excerpt):
Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed.The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the groundtrees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Now a river flowed out of Eden to water the garden; and from there it divided and became four rivers. The name of the first is Pishon; it flows around the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold. The gold of that land is good; the bdellium and the onyx stone are there. The name of the second river is Gihon; it flows around the whole land of Cush. The name of the third river is Tigris; it flows east of Assyria. And the fourth river is the Euphrates. (Genesis 2:8-14).

Imagine its a long, long time ago. As the legend on the map says: Before the upheaval of Central Asia. Before the subsidence of the Pacific Continent. Before the change in the position of the Polar regions. Before the Deluge.

Ah, the Deluge. That gives us a pretty specific time frame, albeit a rather narrow one. To Biblical literalists, sacred history comes with a very real chronology; the universe was created one weekend about six thousand years ago, the Great Flood is less than four and a half thousand years old . In contrast, those who prefer their world view seasoned with a generous helping of science, will be more inclined towards the hypothesis that it all started with a Big Bang, some 13 billion years ago.

Even without going into the whole Creationism versus Evolutionism debate , the massive imbalance in the size of their back stories seems to work in favour of the thesis with the bigger reserves of time. As witnessed by any commercial touting a products traditional recipe as a positive quality, antiquity suggests validity. Its much more difficult to argue with the vast aeons at the disposal of the Big Bangers than with the puny millennia of the Adam and Eve crowd.

But sacred history does have one big advantage over natural history - it has better stories. In the darwinist reading, the path from past to present was forged by impersonal forces: either big accidents (meteors, climate change) or slow evolutionary changes (frontal lobes, opposable thumbs). The supernatural version in the Bible actually is the more humanist one: it gives centre stage to Mr and Mrs Sapiens, and explains history as a consequence of the choices they face




For Darwinists, our dog-eat-dog world merely is the successor to a previous, dinosaur-eat-dinosaur incarnation. In science, there is no Garden of Eden. The idea of Eden - that once there was a perfect state of affairs, when truth and happiness were not opposed , and virtue as pure as the world was young - is a powerful and attractive one , explaining the continued popularity of the sacred version of history, in spite of some obvious logical problems.

So imagine its a long, long Biblical time ago. Its the age of innocence, and life is good in the Garden of Eden. But where is this Garden? The hunt for the exact location of humanitys original home is a fascinating quest, and a centuries-long cartographic conundrum. If they chose to include it on a map, cartographers usually picked a location in the Middle East, that cockpit of hallowed history.

These two maps, however, are quite extraordinarily different. Eden is placed far away from its more usual location in or near Mesopotamia - The Garden is moved East of Eden, to borrow Steinbecks title.





They are the work of Tse Tsan-tai (1872-1938), a Chinese revolutionary, newspaperman and Christian propagandist. Born in Sydney and baptised James Yee, Tse moved to Hong Kong whence he started agitating for the Qing dynasty on the mainland to be replaced by a democratic republic. The plot failed to come to fruition, and Tse had more success co-founding the South China Morning Post in 1903.

In 1914, Tse wrote The Creation, the Garden of Eden and the Origin of the Chinese, in which he attempted to prove, based on the geographical description in the Bible, that the Garden of Eden was located in China.
Tses outlandish theory was an attempt at proving that at least some Biblical events had taken place in China - and that therefore Christianity was not alien to the Middle Kingdom. The book was meant to dispel the notion that Christianity in China was a tool of foreign powers, at a time when the countries sending the missionaries were the same ones bullying a weak China into granting them coastal concessions.

The first map gives a global overview of the Bible-based world history as seen by Tse, and as opposed to others: two black dots represent the usual presumed location of Eden, in what appears to be either Iraq or southeastern Turkey. A red circle represents Tses hypothesis. It places Eden in the far west of China, in what was then known as Chinese Turkestan (and now as Xinjiang).

The location picked by Tse corresponds to the description in the Bible, referring to the course of four rivers near the Garden of Eden . Apparently unconnected to the Edenic claim are red lines on the map, that indicate ancient shorelines, and point to a giant sunken continent stretching from Papua New Guinea almost all the way to South America. It remains unexplained what this continent is, and which Bible verse it is based on; but it is reminiscent, shape- and location-wise, to the lost continent of Mu.


The map also shows an X in Tse's handwriting, marking a spot in Greenland that is supposed to have been the Antediluvian North Pole, Latitude 75˚, Longitude 40˚. Again, the Biblical foundation and any connection to Eden remain unexplained on the map.


Finally, the colour scheme on the map shows the world as peopled by Noahs descendants. Biblical tradition holds that the worlds population descends from no more than three men - the sons of Noah: Shem, Ham and Japhet, the forefathers of the Semites (in the Middle East, and on this map, much of Asia and all of America), the Hamites (Africa, Arabia, India) and Japhetites (Europe). The Semitic expansion into Asia provides blood links between China and the Bible.

The second map gives an indication of the geopositional shoehorning Tse applied to the geographical indications in Genesis, identifying India with Havilah . The result is the location of Eden in what appears to be a most unlikely place: an area between the Tarim River and the Kuen Lun Mountains better known today as the Taklamakan Desert. The area, now the worlds second-largest sand desert after the Empty Quarter in Arabia, is one of the most inhospitable places on earth.



But ruined cities buried beneath the sand seem to indicate that the Taklamakan may not always have been as unforgiving as it has been for the last few millennia. In fact, its very name may hold a clue to its climatological past. Often, and erroneously, translated as something like Once you enter, youll never make it out, or Sea of Death a more recent etymology suggests the name might actually mean Land of Poplars .
Could it be that todays sand desert once really was a garden paradise?
Whether or not others agree, just thought I'd place it out there for the sake of something fun to think about. From a scientific perspective, as it concerns how the planet shifts continents, what we think of with locations today may not have been what they used to be. As another noted, "The 'Lost Continent' is not so random as it appears: it seems to correspond roughly to Micronesia and Polynesia. Note also the smaller "lost continent" to the North, probably representing the Hawai'ian Islands"...

There was actually a book I came across that had similar information in it, entitled Paradise Lust: Searching for the Garden of Eden. It's interesting to see the history of what has occurred for Eden-Seekers, as they did a lot...and were just as obsessed with Noah as they were with Adam and Eve. For more maps, see: paradiselustbook.com/maps

And if the Garden of Eden was originally in Asia, it's amazing to consider the ways that the Lord greatly used the people in it to do much for Him..as the Gospel spread greatly in Asia and there's a strong move of God that has been going on there for sometime.

The resurgence of people seeing the ways the Bible connects with Asians is in many ways a rediscovery of what was always present throughout China and other parts of the East...except that many times it was ignored. A pity it was ignored by so many, in light of the Biblical example of Job:
Job 1:3/Job 1

Prologue

1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil. 2 He had seven sons and three daughters, 3 and he owned seven thousand sheep, three thousand camels, five hundred yoke of oxen and five hundred donkeys, and had a large number of servants. He was the greatest man among all the people of the East.

4 His sons used to hold feasts in their homes on their birthdays, and they would invite their three sisters to eat and drink with them. 5 When a period of feasting had run its course, Job would make arrangements for them to be purified. Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts. This was Jobs regular custom.

and he owned seven thousand sheep, three thousand camels, five hundred yoke of oxen and five hundred donkeys, and had a large number of servants. He was the greatest man among all the people of the East.

There are some who note how Job himself was an Oriental/East Asian.....and for more, one can go online/look up the article entitled The Image of the Oriental: Western and Byzantine Perceptions and the other here at Cyclopaedia of biblical, theological, and ecclesiastical literature - Google Books Result (concerning how Job's tomb is still shown to many Oriental tourists). Also, in the event you (or others) may be interested, there are some excellent articles on the subject of Asian Jews...specifically, those who are Chinese Jews. For more info, one can go online and investigate under the following:
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  #2  
Old 2nd November 2012, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Easy G (G) View Post
Whether or not others agree, just thought I'd place it out there for the sake of something fun to think about. From a scientific perspective, as it concerns how the planet shifts continents, what we think of with locations today may not have been what they used to be. As another noted, "The 'Lost Continent' is not so random as it appears: it seems to correspond roughly to Micronesia and Polynesia. Note also the smaller "lost continent" to the North, probably representing the Hawai'ian Islands"..... It's interesting to see the history of what has occurred for Eden-Seekers, as they did a lot...and were just as obsessed with Noah as they were with Adam and Eve. For more maps, see: paradiselustbook.com/maps
The idea of Pangea may play a lot in regards to discussion dynamics....

I've heard others note that Jerusalem would be in the center of all the continents if they came together. More specifically, when Pangea did exist, the current continent of Asia was in the north/northeast area of the former supercontinent and Jerusalem was approximately in the southwest region of that area of the landform.






For more, one can investigate The Catastrophic Destruction and Restoration of Pangea
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Seeing how all things used to be connected at some point, it makes sense to me that some of the locations discussed Biblically would be altered a bit---and personally, I believe the world was mapped out before the flood, because they explored the whole world. And to give you an idea of how far they travelled..
Genesis 10:5
By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.
On traveling the world, some of the theory would make more sense if seeing it within the context of what happened at Babel in Genesis 11

At the Tower of Babel, a city that was the antithesis of what God intended when He created the world, the Lord came down and disrupting a civilization in which there was originally one language for the entire world. The opening description in Genesis 11:1 with the whole world having one language indicates that the present episode was not placed chronologically after the events narrated in Genesis 10, which specifically mentions nations and languages (Genesis 10:20, Genesis 10:31-32, etc). .....and the episode with Babel may have occurred during the broad period covered in Genesis 10, especially if linked to the naming of Peleg in Genesis 10:25.

Genesis 1:9 records, “And God said, ‘Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.’ And it was so.” Presumably, if all the water was “gathered to one place,” the dry ground would also be all “in one place.” As Genesis 10:25 mentions, “…one was named Peleg, because in his time the earth was divided…”, its understandable as to why some point to Genesis 10:25 as evidence that the earth was divided after the Flood of Noah.

Of course, there are others who view Genesis 10:25 as referring to the “division” that occurred at the Tower of Babel rather than the division of the continents via “continental drift.” Some also dispute the post-Noahic Pangea separation due to the fact that, at the current rates of drift, the continents could not possibly have drifted so far apart in the time that has transpired since the Noahic Flood.

However, it cannot be proven that the continents have always drifted at the same rate. Furthermore, God is capable of expediting the continental-drift process to accomplish His goal of separating humanity (Genesis 11:8)....for God is able to do anything and has intervened in the natural world in wild ways MULTIPLE times before. The post-Noahic Pangea concept does possibly explain how the animals and humanity were able to migrate to the different continents. For how did the kangaroos get to Australia after the Flood if the continents were already separated?

Another explanation offered by Christian scientists that does not require a post-Noahic Pangea is that intercontinental migration most likely began while sea levels were still low during and immediately following the post-Flood Ice Age when much of the water was still trapped in ice at the poles. In this view, lower sea levels would have left the continental shelves exposed, connecting all of the major land masses through land bridges. As it stands, there are (or at least were) shallow underwater land bridges connecting all of the major continents. North America, Southeast Asia, and Australia are all attached to continental Asia...whereas Britain is attached to continental Europe. In some places, these intercontinental bridges are only a few hundred feet below our current sea level. Essentially, the theory can be summarized as follows:
(1) After the Flood, an Ice Age occurred.

(2) The vast amount of water that was frozen resulted in the oceans being much lower than they are today.

(3) The low level of the oceans resulted in land bridges connecting the various continents.

(4) Human beings and animals migrated to the different continents over these land bridges.

(5) The Ice Age ended, the ice melted and the ocean levels rose, resulting in the land bridges being submerged.
Thus, while Pangea is not explicitly mentioned in the Bible, the Bible does present the possibility of a Pangea.



For more information, one can go online/investigate the following under their respective titles:
And what scientists note with the theory of Pangea makes sense if considering what was noted with Peleg---and connecting it all with Babel, it may've been the case that God scattered all people across the world when the continents were one......choosing to later seperate those continents so that people would sovereignly be disconnected from one another.

There've been many wild theories as to how what technological capabilities man had early on when seeing the ways travel occurred----and migration of cultures as well. Some of the mindset that the world being united at some point made it possible for aspects found in one continent to be found in another...whereas others feel there were differing reasons for the diffusion of cultures.

In example, ever heard of the Olmecs?




The Olmecs have been mainly accepted as responsible for advanced civilization in the Americas....and the Mother Culture of all other Indigenious cultures in the Americas. Olmec heads, called "Negroid Statues" in the 1920's when they were found, have continued to baffle many since they have features that simply do not reflect the culture of the Indigineous peoples in the Americas...and resemble the features of those in Africa more so. One of the greatest anthropologists of all time has sought to do much work on the issue...and his name is Ivan Van Sertima. One excellent book on the issue that really blessed me was under the name of "They Came Before Columbus"



For more info, one can go online and look up his video presentation on "Google Video", under the name of "]"They came before Columbus - Dr Ivan Van Sertima..or they can go here to African Presence in Early America.

Ivan Van Sertima is a Guyanese historian, linguist and anthropologist ....and his work, "They Came Before Columbus", is a compelling and superbly detailed documentation of the presence and legacy of Africans in ancient America. Examining navigation and shipbuilding; cultural analogies between Native Americans and Africans; the transportation of plants, animals, and textiles between the continents; and the diaries, journals, and oral accounts of the explorers themselves, Ivan Van Sertima builds a pyramid of evidence to support his claim of an African presence in the New World centuries before Columbus. It was especially interesting to see the dynamics of the Moors, as it concerns some of the trade routes over the Atlantic they developed and how many have discussed that the rise of Eurocentric thought dominated much of history only after the age of Moorish domination in Spain for 400yrs prior.....alongside influence that happened in many differing European countries. Ivan in his book went into great detail telling of the sea routes Africans or Malian Moors were able to use to sail over here prior to Columbus, supporting the theory by the engravings found in the Cockaponset forest by John Gallager (Archeologist & Professor from Fordham University) and correlating it with the inscription found on the Haj Mimoun Rock in East Morocco and deciphered by Barry Fell, which records Moors (Blacks) being here a thousand years before Columbus

A lot of that is not surprising seeing that the descriptions Columbus gave of others present amongst those he saw in the Caribbean were people of African appearance...and other scholars have noted the same. William Katz of the book "Black Indians" did a lot of work on noting those realities, as seen here, here , and here).

Going back to the Olmec issue, the "Negroid" Statues that others have still been unable to understand, many have often pondered how was it that people seemingly from African could come all the way to the Americas. In one dialouge I once had with another, an individual shared from his studies that he felt that the Sumerian writtings indicatied that the Olmec were related to the Anunnaki who traveled to the Americas via space craft. It was his view that they went about Setting up the stone temples and mining for gold..which would also present a connection between the African/Middle Eastern continent and the Americas. In his view, this is why the Omec look African....as well as the rocks/statues on Easter Island.



He continued to state that the small trinkets of gold flying machines from the Mayan, and the glyphs from Egypt indicate space travel, which further colaborates with the Sumarian writtings of the Anunnaki.

I personally don't believe that they needed to have things such as "spacecrafts" in order to traverse the oceans or the world...seeing how other cultures managed to come over on ships to the New World. If the culture spawning the Olmecs was simply far more advanced that all others at the time---just as China at one point was highly advanced and had the technology to travel across continents far before the Maritime Exploration of the Europeans---then its possible that ships were used to travel.

Again, its just a theory..and for more solid review on the history of the Olmecs, one can go online/investigate the following under their respective titles:
Claiming that the Negroid Statues in the Americas may be due to Transpacific influences is something that I have also been open to---and as it concerns other scholars saying that the statues came from Asian influence rather than African and Asians came before Columbus to the Americans (more discussed here, here, here, here, here , here, here and here), that's something I'm more than ready to accept.


All of that is said to make the point that it was indeed more than possible for man to traverse the world...and perhaps, to do so in ways we really can't imagine...
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Old 2nd November 2012, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Easy G (G) View Post
Found something recommended to me by one of my sisters in CHrist---and was very amazed at some of the conclusions made on the issue. For maps are powerful when it comes to how we see the world and how we look at one another---especially as it concerns the level of importance we place on groups coming from certain parts of the globe.

And on the issue, one of the resources I plan to use for my children really amazed when it came to discussing possible areas for where Eden used to be. It's entitled 583 - East is Eden: Adam and Eve's Chinese Garden ... - Big Think/ East is Eden: Adam and Eve's Chinese Garden | Strange Maps
It does not matter where Eden was. The problem is that the Garden nearby Eden still is. Human occupied all land on the earth now, and we do not see the Garden of Eden anywhere. We need to explain this "fact".

Assume what said in this piece of idea is true, then is the Garden of Eden still on the earth now?

Don't take me wrong. I do believe there was and still is Eden and the Garden. But I do not agree with the idea you quoted.
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Old 3rd November 2012, 02:24 AM
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Originally Posted by juvenissun View Post
It does not matter where Eden was. The problem is that the Garden nearby Eden still is. Human occupied all land on the earth now, and we do not see the Garden of Eden anywhere. We need to explain this "fact".

Assume what said in this piece of idea is true, then is the Garden of Eden still on the earth now?
.
It's a false scenario, IMHO, to advocate that the Garden of Eden must STILL exist if discussing where it possibly was---for it was locked off a long time ago by an angel at the end of Genesis 3, the angel being on the east of the garden
Genesis 3:24
After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life. Genesis 3:23-24.
The point of discussing where it used to be physically is one of accuracy.



As said before, discussing where the original location of Eden was is beneficial when it comes to understanding the significance of locations and the people in those areas. There are others, as said before, that feel that the Promise Land itself was originally where Eden was...more shared here on that. I do think there is something to be said on the dyanmics of what the article noted when it came to the concept of a Spiritual Garden of Eden and the Physical one (just as it is with the Heavenly Temple being what the Earthly one is based on). With the theory that Eden was where the Promise Land was, I heard that theory a couple of times growing up..and it's definately plausible. Although my understanding over the years has been that the Promised Land and the Garden did not have to be simultaneous, especially seeing that (again) the Garden itself was locked away by an cherubim angel in Genesis 3 when Adam/Eve were exiled. Eden is always an interesting concept when seeing what it symbolizes...especially in regards to Israel. For more: I still think there's something to be said on the issue of Eden being located in Asia and seeing the impact that geology/plate shifting can make when people in an area don't know they are being moved.

Don't take me wrong. I do believe there was and still is Eden and the Garden. But I do not agree with the idea you quoted
More than understand. I disagree with your conclusion, of course, but understand where you're coming from.
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The Garden of Eden is past the flaming sword, and the Garden of Eden has the Tree of Life and Tree of Knowledge, also there is one river that flows through it not four. The four rivers are external to the Garden. They are the four spirits of God that hold apart this creation.
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Old 3rd November 2012, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by inthec View Post
The Garden of Eden is past the flaming sword, and the Garden of Eden has the Tree of Life and Tree of Knowledge, also there is one river that flows through it not four. The four rivers are external to the Garden. They are the four spirits of God that hold apart this creation.

One would wonder if the physical rivers of today once had a central point no longer in existence on the earth today--as it concerns the river that flowed through Eden to make the four others often try to connect.
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Proverbs 24:3-6
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Old 3rd November 2012, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Easy G (G) View Post
One would wonder if the physical rivers of today once had a central point no longer in existence on the earth today--as it concerns the river that flowed through Eden to make the four others often try to connect.
And as we see today, many rivers flow into each other to make one, not the other way around as described in Genesis. There is hint in Revelation that the river that flows out of the garden is not water, but some type of energy.

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


Id say these rivers have about as much water in them as the Tree of Life and Knowledge have wood in them.
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Old 3rd November 2012, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by inthec View Post
And as we see today, many rivers flow into each other to make one, not the other way around as described in Genesis. There is hint in Revelation that the river that flows out of the garden is not water, but some type of energy.

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


Id say these rivers have about as much water in them as the Tree of Life and Knowledge have wood in them.
Hadn't considered that before, as it concerns the dynamic of how the one great river that flowed into others may've been more than a regular water supply---and thus, that alters a lot of what people may envision when it comes to the map and geography. For it could've very well have been an energy source of some type, either in the form of water or with the water itself being connected to something in the supernatural and a metaphysical reality (similar to how angels and divine beings interact with the physical world, even showing aspects like fire being present in differing realities ..like chariots of fire or angels ascending into flame). And in the event that man sinned, that source of renewal/energy was locked off----perhaps leading to more ecological devestation and the other 4 rivers were cut off from the one great river source that nurtured them all....with those 4 rivers still existing in the physical and yet not having the same dynamics as before.

Obviously, the Tree of Life will be present in the end times during the rule of Christ---with the river that brings life being present as well...just as it seemed to have been present in Genesis.
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Old 3rd November 2012, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Easy G (G) View Post
Hadn't considered that before, as it concerns the dynamic of how the one great river that flowed into others may've been more than a regular water supply---and thus, that alters a lot of what people may envision when it comes to the map and geography. For it could've very well have been an energy source of some type, either in the form of water or with the water itself being connected to something in the supernatural and a metaphysical reality (similar to how angels and divine beings interact with the physical world, even showing aspects like fire being present in differing realities ..like chariots of fire or angels ascending into flame). And in the event that man sinned, that source of renewal/energy was locked off----perhaps leading to more ecological devestation and the other 4 rivers were cut off from the one great river source that nurtured them all....with those 4 rivers still existing in the physical and yet not having the same dynamics as before.

Obviously, the Tree of Life will be present in the end times during the rule of Christ---with the river that brings life being present as well...just as it seemed to have been present in Genesis.
You pretty much summed up the way I see it.

I will add here something to study. We see in the new creation in Revelation, there are 12 foundations. And there is reference to valuable things like stones and such.

Now I believe the same idea was put forth in Genesis in reference to the 4 rivers. So by this we see there are 4 foundations of the present creation which is why I think the four rivers represent the four beasts that hold up the firmament in Ezekiel and Revelation.
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Old 3rd November 2012, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by inthec View Post
You pretty much summed up the way I see it.

I will add here something to study. We see in the new creation in Revelation, there are 12 foundations. And there is reference to valuable things like stones and such.

Now I believe the same idea was put forth in Genesis in reference to the 4 rivers. So by this we see there are 4 foundations of the present creation which is why I think the four rivers represent the four beasts that hold up the firmament in Ezekiel and Revelation.
I think it'd be beneficial to give more resources in the form of reference for serious study/consideration to occur----as it can be easy to conjecture with scriptures and not deal with the full context. The texts of Ezekiel 1:5-7 / Ezekiel 1 & Ezekiel 10:10-12/Ezekiel 10 and Revelation 4:6-8/ Revelation 4 note the four living creatures with 4 differing faces, some which were cherubim and others who surrounded thee throne room of God---but never in regards to keeping the heavens/creation together.
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