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  #11  
Old 1st November 2012, 10:52 AM
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Unregulated Capitalism naturally evolves into crony capitalism. The far right understanding of "true capitalism" is utopian and will never exist. The rich will simply use their power and wealth to bring about the cronyism if there are not strong regulations and safe guards to prevent it. Such safe guards are inevitably interpreted as "socialism" and rejected by the adherents of right wing "true capitalism".
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  #12  
Old 1st November 2012, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by ziggy29 View Post
Pure, laissez-faire free market capitalism does not exist and probably never can. As long as there is a capitalist system there will be capitalists buying politicians and votes that pad their bottom line, put competitors at a disadvantage and allow them to jerk customers and employees around. That's why capitalism in practice is so flawed even when capitalism in its theoretical pure free-market form sounds good. And this is why capitalism must be regulated to a reasonable degree, particularly to limit the ability to engage in "crony capitalism" or "corporatism". Unfortunately the folks who make these rules benefit from all the money these corporate interests contribute to them (thanks, Citizens United), so we won't see any reforms any time soon.


Combining a completely unregulated market with democracy is simply a way to hand control of the country over to the plutocrats. Once they get their people in they will just remake the government, it's size, scope, etc.. to their own liking. When too much money finds it's way into the hands of a small group of people they will find a way to pervert the system and abuse it while telling everyone else that people need to "play fair" and using language that seems concerned for "freedom" when the truth is that it's political bait-and-switch to give themselves a cover for how they don't even play fairly by the system. For money is power...and too much money in too few hands is a natural recipe for disaster.

It's one of the reasons why many have often noted that the U.S has never truly had anything remotely close to a truly "free market" ..as the people who are plutocrats have been present in the founding of America since Day 1.

Many things were often done in the name of "freedom/democracy" (translation: people went against the ideologies of those in control of the levels of freeom that other ruling elites were comfortable with ). Noam Chomsky actually did some good review on the issue of how often people have the wrong concept of freedom with "free markets" and how much of it is never truly free.





Noam Chomsky: "Free Markets?" - YouTube


Noam Chomsky - Free Market Fantasies - Capitalism In The Real ...
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  #13  
Old 1st November 2012, 11:00 AM
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Combining a completely unregulated market with democracy is simply a way to hand control of the country over to the plutocrats. Once they get their people in they will just remake the government, it's size, scope, etc.. to their own liking.
Exactly.
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Old 1st November 2012, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by RedPaddy View Post
OP seems to be accurate.
Mostly, but it also says this:

When I praise [snip] free markets [snip]
By saying this the OP shows a lack of understanding about interconnectedness of the free market and crony capitalism. Crony capitalism can only be eliminated in a properly regulated market. Too much or too little regulation both kill competition and lean to crony capitalism.
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Old 1st November 2012, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Easy G (G) View Post
It's one of the reasons why many have often noted that the U.S has never truly had anything remotely close to a truly "free market" ..as the people who are plutocrats have been present in the founding of America since Day 1.
A truly "free market" is a theoretical construct that leads to contradicting itself.

Think about it. In a free market with NO government intervention, some businesses could grow so big, so strong, so dominant, that it can easily crush its competition, whether buying them out, using predatory pricing or other size-and-wealth advantages that their smaller competition can't compete with. Companies could collude openly to destroy competition, too. No one would even TRY to create a competitor because it would be obviously doomed to fail.

And at that point you no longer *have* a free market with competition -- You have a monopoly which is no longer subject to market forces. This is why there was such a push in the late 19th and early 20th centuries to rein in trusts and monopolies. They are poison to free markets, and ironically they can result from a market that is "too free".

Better to have a 90% "free" market which limits corporate power, dominance and "cronyism" than have a theoretical 100% free market which will inevitably turn into monopoly and/or plutocracy -- the antithesis of a "free market". And IMO, we'd be a lot better off if we didn't scream about the other 10% being "socialism", which is becoming the new McCarthyism.

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Old 1st November 2012, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Illuminaughty View Post
Unregulated Capitalism naturally evolves into crony capitalism. The far right understanding of "true capitalism" is utopian and will never exist. The rich will simply use their power and wealth to bring about the cronyism if there are not strong regulations and safe guards to prevent it. Such safe guards are inevitably interpreted as "socialism" and rejected by the adherents of right wing "true capitalism".
One of the few placed is the world that has a truly unregulated market in Somalia (strange that free market capitalist also seem to ignore them). In Somalia, cronyism and corruption are so rampant that the military and police are essentially on the payroll of the most powerful business leaders and are used to literally kill competition.

I once heard it stated that in Somalia that bribery and murder are mainstream business practices because in the absense of a government they aren't illegal.
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Old 1st November 2012, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Illuminaughty View Post
Unregulated Capitalism naturally evolves into crony capitalism. The far right understanding of "true capitalism" is utopian and will never exist. The rich will simply use their power and wealth to bring about the cronyism if there are not strong regulations and safe guards to prevent it. Such safe guards are inevitably interpreted as "socialism" and rejected by the adherents of right wing "true capitalism".
If people were inherently inclined to help others out and good, then unregulated capitalism would not be something to do. However, human nature shows otherwise EVERY time and has done so throughout history. This is why what often has been done in the name of "free market" and sharing has simply been a matter of plutocrats gaining more control over things as time progresses..

And the issue impacts all on a small level since many of the resources we use daily are freely thrown on the backs of others to deal with when it comes to waste-----or when it comes to using resources from other places to make the products we use all the time here in the U.S. ...and not many catch that. The U.S is obligated to stop talking about the ways Americans work hard to better their future and yet we often import much of our waste to other nations as if it's their responsibility to handle our junk....with the benefit of "market demand" being what causes a lot of problems.






For another practical example, What you speak of is a part of a much larger and global issue going on when it comes to the ways wages are utilized around the world and cheap labor is done without proper compensation.

I worked at Caribou Coffee for some time and got to see that reality first hand. Grew up getting used to the taste of coffee and coming to like it (even though I use alot of sweets in it). However, although I enjoy it and have worked at a Coffee shop (Caribou) for some time, I must say that it is a bit disturbing to see how addictive it can become.

To consider the many ways that something that is a drug has become so accepted made me a bit unsettled. Moreover, it was a bit bothersome seeing the many ways in which coffee has been utilized to do ALOT of damage globally when it comes to many of the dangerous things done in trading/growing it.


There was an excellent book I was able to read years ago entitled "Every Day Justice" that really helped me to see some of the ways coffee can be just as damaging as cocaine.....as seen here.




To see how many farmers don't get paid fairly and how many have literally been damaged with the amount of coffee they've been forced to produce was shocking---and yet we in the U.S have no problem drinking our coffee as if it didn't mean anything. Fair Trade coffee is what I'd prefer nowadays that I realize how many aren't really given their due...








Additionally, many coffee farmers have often had to switch from farming coffee beans to the cocoa trade (from which cocaine derives) and have been forced into the drug trade since they were not paid fairly for their work....and anyone familar with the drug trade economy is already aware of how much destruction has arisen from that.



Thankfully, other organizations are seeking to address this...and it's one of the reasons why I was glad for working at Caribou since their "Rainforest Alliance" program does alot of work on the matter.



As much as I love a good cup of coffee/brew, I have to to keep in mind how much the drink seems to be serving to do much evil all around the world.



For a good documentary on the matter, one can go online and look up the documentary entitled Black Gold.











And for further reference:


For another example, in reading the book "Everyday Justice", I was surprised to see the demands we often put on produce/veggies creates conditions even in the U.S akin to what one would expect in the days of SLAVERY/plantations. In 2010, I went with my best bud to Florida..and its still shocking to consider how many tomato farms limit others to slave-like conditions, with no fair wages and inhumane treatement of workers when it comes to chemicals they have to work with without protection to produce the tomatoes we enjoy. The US government has repeatedly uncovered slavery rings among farms in Florida, and in 2008, five farm owners were prosecuted for beating tomato harvesters ...with many cases of sexual harrassment on the women, who were migrant workers and forced into silence.






Taco Bell, which is one of the leading industries demanding tomatoes, was implicated in many cases for their working with these same farms---knowingly allowing it to continue as long as they got their produce on time. It was exposed recently..and only of late have they begun to try addressing the problem. But for many, if you tell them about it, what's the response? No one cares really




Because when people want a "free market" to get whatever product they're after at a cheap price/low expense, the ends justify the means...










For more info, one can go online and look up an article under the name of the following:



. After coming back from a Mission trip to Michigan last July and working at the migrant farms there...seeing how many are abandoned and people often complaining on "government being too big" don't care about the ways government ALLOWS them to benefit from corrupt markets if they get products they want at any cost.....I'm sorry, but that makes me SICK.



In free markets, nothing is ever truly free...
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Old 1st November 2012, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Illuminaughty View Post
Unregulated Capitalism naturally evolves into crony capitalism. The far right understanding of "true capitalism" is utopian and will never exist. The rich will simply use their power and wealth to bring about the cronyism if there are not strong regulations and safe guards to prevent it. Such safe guards are inevitably interpreted as "socialism" and rejected by the adherents of right wing "true capitalism".

The whole country is sick. Profit for me, "by any means necessary" has been mistaken for patriotism...and people don't even recognize who the real enemies are. One more reason why I often note that the type of country we live in is a plutocracy where patriotism is romatic for the working poor/lower and middle class while in reality your loyalty is rewarded as far as those with the money approve. It's always will be about the money, no matter where you go...






For more on the issue:




Democracy Science Capitalism is definately one of the best places to go for more info on the issue, as it concerns the plutocracy we live in and how it often sets the boundaries for how much can really be done in the nation....

And this has been going on for a LONG Time (decades in the making since the mid 1900s). Essentially, all you're seeing is a mini form of black market politics at work and trying to gain legitimacy in the larger organizations /look good and have plausible denial when it comes to being suspected...much like front companies are via organized crime syndicates when nice establishments to provide for the community (i.e. grocery store, toy shop, bakery, etc) are often used to do shady dealings for the people higher up-----and those who are supposed to go after them don't do anything because of the resources that indirectly or directly come their way...causing them to look the other way if they see things. And when the smaller groups are doing the same, the cry for shutting down injustice is raised..... and people are punished while not staying true to the principle they've violated because their hands are in the Cookie jar as well.

Some good resources for study:

--"The United States as a Plutocracy ~Living Economies" ( )

--"
Our Plutocracy: A Sobering New Portrait"


--"Corporate Plutocracy or Faux Democracy? " ( )

--"Welcome to the Plutocracy ~ Front Porch Republic" ( )

---"American Government and the Evolution of Plutocracy" ( )

--Left Out - Francis Fukuyama - The American Interest Magazine

--"Plutocracy Reborn: U.S. Wealth Inequality Gap Largest since 1928" ()



--"Ending Corporate Governance: We The People Revoking Our Plutocracy" ( )


----Oligarchy and Democracy - Jeffery Winters -The American Interest Magazine

--"Plutocracy/Corporatocracy (Big Brother) Democracy Science Capitalism ..." ( )

Regardless of whether you're Republican or Democrat, the reality as it seems is that there's lack of real liberty present in all sides whenever greed is present due to human nature/sin. Both sides want to have control, one side being for BIG Government running things and the other side being for BIG Buisness/Corporations running things....and in both cases, people fund it on the sides for the sake of keeping control. In the words of Frances Moore Lappe, To save the democracy we thought we had, we must take democracy to where its never been"......
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Old 1st November 2012, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by ziggy29 View Post
A truly "free market" is a theoretical construct that leads to contradicting itself.

Think about it. In a free market with NO government intervention, some businesses could grow so big, so strong, so dominant, that it can easily crush its competition, whether buying them out, using predatory pricing or other size-and-wealth advantages that their smaller competition can't compete with. Companies could collude openly to destroy competition, too. No one would even TRY to create a competitor because it would be obviously doomed to fail.

And at that point you no longer *have* a free market with competition -- You have a monopoly which is no longer subject to market forces. This is why there was such a push in the late 19th and early 20th centuries to rein in trusts and monopolies. They are poison to free markets, and ironically they can result from a market that is "too free".

Better to have a 90% "free" market which limits corporate power, dominance and "cronyism" than have a theoretical 100% free market which will inevitably turn into monopoly and/or plutocracy -- the antithesis of a "free market". And IMO, we'd be a lot better off if we didn't scream about the other 10% being "socialism", which is becoming the new McCarthyism.
Excellent points. For me, when I think on the issue of "free" markets and how they've often played out, what comes to mind immediately is that historical practice has not always been beneficial to others who sought to address it.

There's the ways many blacks were treated by the government and why they often don't trust the government. If you've ever heard of something known as "Black Wallstreet", you'll understand what I'm saying. In 1908 the Greenwood Heights community in Tulsa, Oklahoma was established. It was known as “the Negro Wallstreet” and was comparable in affluence to Beverly Hills today. About 15,000 African-Americans lived in this neighbourhood. The Greenwood business district boasted around 600 African-American owned, successful businesses including modest two-seat barber shops to family-run grocery stores. It was one of the most concentrated African-American business communities in America. BlackWallStreet was amongst the most successful BLACK-Owned buisnesses in history in the early 1900s... something which gave much competition amongst other buisness...but was later torn down in white mob violence over a miscommunication. When resources were asked for and help, calls were ignored...just as occurred before (if investigating the case of Rosewood Massecure where another prosperous black community was wiped out).

Many realized that the calls for trusting in government only went so far when there were others in the government favoring businesses that would benefit from allowing a Negro business to be wiped out....and that no matter how much they grew prosperous in their own market (especially when it came to keeping money in the community/doing businesses amongst one another rather than doing things on the terms of other white businesses who didn't want to play fair--more here and here), their market would not be treated properly so long as there was bias in the overall markets by people who used the government to enforce the avoidance of respecting property rights. For the government would come in to aid you if you were a group it happened to favor for its own reasons----but apart from that, there was no need to expect real support.

And that goes especially for others who were wanting the government to help by respecting its rights to property enforcement and not taking over their buisness to "protect it" or leaving them alone when they needed help while bending over backward to help other buisnesses who had their hands deep pocket.

It's one of the reasons many blacks were advocating for Segregation/Becoming Seperatists at one point (Malcom X and Marcus Garvey amongst the greatest voices), as they realized the ways government often had NO interest in helping the black community unless things were done on the terms of the government---and many became fearful of the ways many blacks were becoming either militant or outright rejecting of what government could offer. Some became fearful of blacks who throughout the early 1900s decided to support more of a communist mindset since they were treated well/invited over many times to those areas.....and the government consistently came against share-croppers coming together/forming unions or communal groups (more shared here and here)..
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Old 1st November 2012, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by kermit View Post
Having worked in business for over a decade and having a degree in business administration I will you that free market capitalism is a unicorn (talked about and understood, but never existed). If I own a business I'm not insterested in the free market, I'm interested in gaining market share and driving my competition out of business. To that end business leaders will use whatever tools they have at their disposal; that includes bribing politician for special favors then that's what happens.

So to say that crony capitalism isn't capitalism is cannard as crony capitalism is one of the results when business leaders are given too much reign.
Furthermore, isn't the "free hand" of the market something that Adam Smith mentioned only in passing?
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