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26th October 2012, 07:20 PM
|  | Pinball Wizard
  
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Reps: 20,540,724,577,414,440 (power: 0) | | | Why I Believe the Pre-Tribulational Rapturist Doctrine is Dangerous
From another post, but to get this out here for comment and debate:
I do believe the pre-tribulational rapturist doctrine is a dangerous one, and it teaches that "everyone else is not watching, only you" -- that this is deeply untrue.
Worse, far worse, I think that aspect of the doctrine is combined with it so that pre-tribulational rapturists are lulled into a very false sense of safety.
Effectively, because they are taking such a hardened view, they are not watching in the way they were told to watch.
Keeping watch, I believe, means being on the alert. Seeking hard for the truth with an open mind, not a narrow mind. Holding to that which is true, but still seeking truth. Having the confidence to consider all matters, for one has proven to one's self that one is open to honesty in considering all matters in one's heart.
I do not believe "keeping watch" means to hold to any doctrine or any body of doctrines with a narrow mind, with a closed mind.
That, to me, is like a watchman who is only looking for one manner of threat arriving from the woods. So, when another manner of threat comes, they are totally taken by surprise.
A good watchman is someone who is paranoid in their viewpoint in terms of "what might be a threat", and open minded about the many ways in which threats may come.
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26th October 2012, 08:36 PM
| | Regular Member
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Reps: 134,585,937,790,581,824 (power: 0) | | | They also don’t seem to get that the people who make up Israel are the ones who have the faith of Abraham. The Jewish people who were born Jews are not part of Israel unless they have genuine faith. A blood relationship means nothing so Israel is made up of Jews, Christians, Muslims, people from all backgrounds. ‘For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart’…Rom 2:28
So all those verses in Revelation that seem to be pointing to literal Jews are really pointing towards Christians. Take the 144,000 as an example. How could Christians fit into the twelve tribes of Israel? Easily, they fit in by character type not blood type. Each of the original men who made up the tribes had a unique character so when we exercise faith in Christ and are born again we are grafted into one of the twelve tribes. It’s no coincidence that Jesus chose twelve disciples (12 unique character types) and the new Jerusalem has twelve gates, one for each of the tribes. The redeemed that enter into the city will have to go thru one of those gates and the one they go thru will be the tribe they belong to. |
27th October 2012, 01:45 AM
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Reps: 10,374,981,052,713,208 (power: 0) | | | [quote=PureDose;61644068]From another post, but to get this out here for comment and debate:
[i][b]I do believe the pre-tribulational rapturist doctrine is a dangerous one, and it teaches that "everyone else is not watching, only you" -- that this is deeply untrue.
Worse, far worse, I think that aspect of the doctrine is combined with it so that pre-tribulational rapturists are lulled into a very false sense of safety.
Effectively, because they are taking such a hardened view, they are not watching in the way they were told to watch.
Keeping watch, I believe, means being on the alert. Seeking hard for the truth with an open mind, not a narrow mind. Holding to that which is true, but still seeking truth. Having the confidence to consider all matters, for one has proven to one's self that one is open to honesty in considering all matters in one's heart.
I do not believe "keeping watch" means to hold to any doctrine or any body of doctrines with a narrow mind, with a closed mind.
That, to me, is like a watchman who is only looking for one manner of threat arriving from the woods. So, when another manner of threat comes, they are totally taken by surprise.
A good watchman is someone who is paranoid in their viewpoint in terms of "what might be a threat", and open minded about the many ways in which threats may come.
What about Soteriology, the doctrine of salvation? How narrow minded should we be about that? |
27th October 2012, 01:47 AM
| | Regular Member
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| | Join Date: 13th October 2012
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Reps: 10,374,981,052,713,208 (power: 0) | | | Matthew 11:11
Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Explain this verse. |
27th October 2012, 06:31 AM
| | Regular Member
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Reps: 10,374,981,052,713,208 (power: 0) | | | Here's a problem for anyone that insists the church (Body/Bride of Christ) will be present for the tribulation. Jesus declared that the gates of hell would not prevail against His church. "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations". How do you resolve this? How do you explain Mt 11:11? |
27th October 2012, 07:21 AM
|  | Wittenberg Catholic
  
| | Join Date: 2nd October 2011
Posts: 6,005
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Reps: 1,197,073,613,585,045,760 (power: 1,197,073,613,585,053) | | | I think a primary problem with the idea that Christians are going to get "raptured" out from the world before a period of tribulation is that it's insulting to the millions of martyrs who have suffered unspeakable tribulation and persecution since the beginning.
"Oh, God won't let His Church suffer." Is a lie. Try telling that to the martyrs who suffered under Nero, Domitian, or Diocletian. Try telling that to the holy martyrs who suffered under Tokugawa, or under Stalin. Try telling that to the Christians in the underground Church in China, or to the Christians in the Sudan.
No, the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church, it never has and it never will. And come any suffering, any persecution, any tribulation the Church will survive and endure.
We are not escaping this world, we are here with a meaning and a purpose until Christ comes and makes all things new. To suffer for Him, while in His name reaching out with the hand of kindness and grace to every hurting person on this planet.
We are called to bear cross, to follow our Lord even if that means bloodshed and death.
There is nothing Christian about the popular rapture doctrine, a 19th century innovation that has no place in the Church of Jesus Christ.
-CryptoLutheran
__________________
To be crucified with Christ means to be in the business of dying. Our arms should be outstretched, unable to make a fist or be armed to injure. To be crucified is to be too busy suffering, serving, and loving everyone that we don't have time to think ill or wish one harm. "When Christ calls a man, He bids him, 'Come and die.'" (Dietrich Bonhoeffer) |
27th October 2012, 08:05 AM
|  | HSN#1851
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Reps: 170,643,721,159,166,080 (power: 170,643,721,159,168) | | ViaCrucis that seems to me about as well put as it gets. Not only is it beautifully stated but punishingly true. 
Ever notice that Paul employs ''harpazo'' (the Greek word used for the ''Rapture'') not once but twice in his statement concerning being ''caught up'' into Paradise? And he is clear that he was not even sure whether it was in or out of the body-temple. Yet the ''Rapturists'' never pay any attention to this ''Rapture of Saul'' passage (who then becomes Paul) because Paul was sent back to write it down for the benefit of the congregations. The same thing happened with Enoch, (Hebrews 11:5-13 states that all those listed died without having received the promises) and also Philip who was ''caught up'' (also ''harpazo'') and later found at Azotus. |
27th October 2012, 08:56 AM
|  | Senior Member
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Reps: 428,381,231,678,240,192 (power: 428,381,231,678,254) | | Originally Posted by ViaCrucis  the popular rapture doctrine, a 19th century innovation that has no place in the Church of Jesus Christ.
-CryptoLutheran
The falsehood of this statement has been proved in this forum so many times I lost count long ago.
The OP claims that pre-tribbers do not watch with an open mind. I answer that they do not examine the scriptures with an open mind.
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Biblewriter is the handle of James C. Morris. I call myself Biblewriter because I write about the Bible. |
27th October 2012, 09:01 AM
| | Senior Member
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Reps: 428,381,231,678,240,192 (power: 428,381,231,678,254) | | Originally Posted by Epoisses They also don’t seem to get that the people who make up Israel are the ones who have the faith of Abraham. The Jewish people who were born Jews are not part of Israel unless they have genuine faith. A blood relationship means nothing so Israel is made up of Jews, Christians, Muslims, people from all backgrounds. ‘For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart’…Rom 2:28
So all those verses in Revelation that seem to be pointing to literal Jews are really pointing towards Christians. Take the 144,000 as an example. How could Christians fit into the twelve tribes of Israel? Easily, they fit in by character type not blood type. Each of the original men who made up the tribes had a unique character so when we exercise faith in Christ and are born again we are grafted into one of the twelve tribes. It’s no coincidence that Jesus chose twelve disciples (12 unique character types) and the new Jerusalem has twelve gates, one for each of the tribes. The redeemed that enter into the city will have to go thru one of those gates and the one they go thru will be the tribe they belong to.
You are forgetting (or simply ignoring) the last half of the Old Testament, which explicitly declares that the ancient nation of Israel will finally be brought back to their ancient homeland. And they explicitly say this so many times that it would be very difficult to count.
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Biblewriter is the handle of James C. Morris. I call myself Biblewriter because I write about the Bible. |
27th October 2012, 09:12 AM
| | Regular Member
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Reps: 4,881,583,675,103,258 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by PureDose From another post, but to get this out here for comment and debate:
I do believe the pre-tribulational rapturist doctrine is a dangerous one, and it teaches that "everyone else is not watching, only you" -- that this is deeply untrue.
Worse, far worse, I think that aspect of the doctrine is combined with it so that pre-tribulational rapturists are lulled into a very false sense of safety.
Effectively, because they are taking such a hardened view, they are not watching in the way they were told to watch.
Keeping watch, I believe, means being on the alert. Seeking hard for the truth with an open mind, not a narrow mind. Holding to that which is true, but still seeking truth. Having the confidence to consider all matters, for one has proven to one's self that one is open to honesty in considering all matters in one's heart.
I do not believe "keeping watch" means to hold to any doctrine or any body of doctrines with a narrow mind, with a closed mind.
That, to me, is like a watchman who is only looking for one manner of threat arriving from the woods. So, when another manner of threat comes, they are totally taken by surprise.
A good watchman is someone who is paranoid in their viewpoint in terms of "what might be a threat", and open minded about the many ways in which threats may come.
while I'm in complete agreement with your summation, there is a far more dangerous effect that happens when someone is led into this false doctrine, and while we are waiting for Christ to return the danger of this teaching is all but unseen,
the most dangerous effect this teaching has, will be, it will have led many unread christians to follow the antichrist, because this doctrine puts Jesus the real Christ coming before the false christ.
why in the world would Jesus have warned His people of the false christ, and all that He would do, if He was coming for them before this false christ | | |
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