| Exploring Christianity A Forum for Non Christians to explore Christianity with Christians. |  | | 
9th October 2012, 12:54 PM
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Reps: 17,597,546,676,391,376 (power: 17,597,546,676,407) | | | How accurate is this summation of God and sacrifice? One is asked to believe God's path to save the imperfect, us. God created man in his perfection with the capacity of imperfection, because through the act of man, thus men fell to the status of imperfection. That is all humanity lost perfection through the guile of a silver tongue talking snake's ability to tempt God's first created. They fell short and sinned, and as a repercussion, so the rest of humanity is rendered imperfect in sin. Yet more than that, God's intolerance for imperfection of falling short consigns the imperfect to an eternal punishment for the act of one man submitting to a guile silver tongue talking snake. But low and behold God provides a means for the imperfect to be saved, for low and behold, and just like other Gods, God loves blood. The route of cleansing sin is blood through the sacrifice of the living. Not just any old sacrifice, for the perfect God needs perfection. Thus the sacrifice has to be that of the unembellished. You see, God desires nothing but the best for itself. At first the saving pathway was through the blood of animals seen as pure, perfect, and unblemished. It was no different than what those nations surrounding had done with humans; and seeing the young were seen as pure, perfect, and unblemished, in accord to those God's perfection, that's whom were sacrificed. So the spilling of blood from perfect animals it is. Monkey see monkey do. But then God decides the blood of animals seen pure, perfect, and unblemished was no longer good enough. So taking a cue again from those other surrounding nations, God concedes only the blood sacrifice of a human can suffice for salvation. The problem however is; God has deemed every living human imperfect. So God working that situation knowing he is solely perfect, he thus reincarnates himself in human flesh, so he can satisfy his perfection by conducting a blood sacrifice of himself yet to himself. So no different then, again, than what other surrounding nations were doing with Gods as fathers and humans as mothers; God impregnates a human woman and gives birth to the divine...also known as himself...or in common parlance, a Demigod. So what is asked to be believed is God incarnated himself; to sacrifice himself to himself so you, but only if you believe this true, so you now through a human sacrifice no different than what their neighbors had done, can be cleansed and able to dwell in the adode with God. | 
9th October 2012, 02:08 PM
| | Blood-bought
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Reps: 943,758,700,723,837,440 (power: 943,758,700,723,841) | | Originally Posted by JoyJuice
How accurate is this summation?
It's not.
Question answered.
In the faith,
Clare
__________________ This is what the LORD says: "Let not the wise man boast of his wisdom or the strong man boast of his strength or the rich man boast of his riches, but let him who boasts boast in this: that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight," delcares the LORD. | 
9th October 2012, 02:12 PM
|  | Nubes ex Deus
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Reps: 224,926,669,189,116,768 (power: 224,926,669,189,117) | | Your summary adequately describes the beliefs of certain sectarian churches in Christendom. Now I will give my opinion of what the traditional ancient Christian belief would be: Originally Posted by JoyJuice God created man in his perfection with the capacity of imperfection, because through the act of man, thus men fell to the status of imperfection.
No. Mankind was not created perfect. Humans were created "innocent", like naive children, with the capacity to grow and someday become like God through God's grace. Humans were created to be high priests of creation, because a human being was believed to be a microcosm of creation and could thus fulfill this role. Originally Posted by JoyJuice Yet more than that, God's intolerance for imperfection of falling short consigns the imperfect to an eternal punishment for the act of one man submitting to a guile silver tongue talking snake.
No, God did not say that he would kill humans if they ate from the tree. He said they would die. humans killed themselves, and because humans function corporately, brought death upon humanity. The reason they died was because they sought life and growth apart from God, who is the source of life, and damaged the image of God within themselves to the point where they were not able to repair it themselves. just like other Gods, God loves blood.
Ancient Semitic people believed that "life was in the blood", that is, one's animating faculty resided in the blood and breath. A lot better than believing in some sort of "mind" that's "who you really are", IMO.
In any case, when you read about blood in sacrifices, the point is that life is being sacrificed. Originally Posted by JoyJuice The route of cleansing sin is blood through the sacrifice of the living. Not just any old sacrifice, for the perfect God needs perfection. Thus the sacrifice has to be that of the unembellished. You see, God desires nothing but the best for itself.
The point of an Old Testament sacrifice was not to feed God or create a change in God, but rather to remove sin from the person sacrificing. That is why certain sacrifices were eaten by the person making the sacrifice. They believed that they were "filling up the sin" with life, because life is in the blood. Originally Posted by JoyJuice It was no different than what those nations surrounding had done with humans
A lot of the "ancient" accounts of human sacrifice among pagans are probably invented. Originally Posted by JoyJuice So taking a cue again from those other surrounding nations, God concedes only the blood sacrifice of a human can suffice for salvation. The problem however is; God has deemed every living human imperfect.
Humans weren't damaged because God considered them to be damaged. They were objectively damaged. Originally Posted by JoyJuice So God working that situation knowing he is solely perfect, he thus reincarnates himself in human flesh, so he can satisfy his perfection by conducting a blood sacrifice of himself yet to himself.
No.
God became incarnate to:
Deify humans. He probably would have become incarnate as a human regardless of a Fall event taking place, for this purpose.
Repair the damaged image of God in man: By making the Image of God incarnate as a man, the image of God in man was repaired according to its prototype.
This was ultimately fulfilled in the totality of the life, death, resurrection and ascension of Christ. Because he was sinless and without corruption, entering into the curse and death of the cross, he filled up the unrighteousness of humanity with his righteousness, and filled up death with his life. That is why ancient Christians say that no more dead people remain in tombs, even though the relics of their natural bodies rest there in this age.
Christ did not die on the Cross to satisfy God's desire for punishment according to some supra-divine justice. That's paganism. Originally Posted by JoyJuice God impregnates a human woman and gives birth to the divine...also known as himself...or in common parlance, a Demigod.
No, a demigod is half god and half man, or some sort of lesser god.
The Logos is 100% divine and 100% human. So what is asked to be believed is God incarnated himself; to sacrifice himself to himself so you, but only if you believe this true
God sacrificed himself for everyone, believers and unbelievers. The only way to become human and become Divine is to have your body broken and your blood shed together with Christ's. It's not about vapid intellectual assent, the sinner's prayer, or any kitschy egotistical nonsense.
There was no other way.
Last edited by Cappadocious; 9th October 2012 at 02:21 PM.
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9th October 2012, 03:57 PM
|  | Fruit Inspector

| | Join Date: 5th May 2010
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__________________ These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:13-14) | 
9th October 2012, 04:36 PM
|  | Wittenberg Catholic
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Reps: 1,187,850,241,548,190,976 (power: 1,187,850,241,548,198) | | Originally Posted by JoyJuice One is asked to believe God's path to save the imperfect, us. God created man in his perfection with the capacity of imperfection, because through the act of man, thus men fell to the status of imperfection. That is all humanity lost perfection through the guile of a silver tongue talking snake's ability to tempt God's first created. They fell short and sinned, and as a repercussion, so the rest of humanity is rendered imperfect in sin. Yet more than that, God's intolerance for imperfection of falling short consigns the imperfect to an eternal punishment for the act of one man submitting to a guile silver tongue talking snake. But low and behold God provides a means for the imperfect to be saved, for low and behold, and just like other Gods, God loves blood. The route of cleansing sin is blood through the sacrifice of the living. Not just any old sacrifice, for the perfect God needs perfection. Thus the sacrifice has to be that of the unembellished. You see, God desires nothing but the best for itself. At first the saving pathway was through the blood of animals seen as pure, perfect, and unblemished. It was no different than what those nations surrounding had done with humans; and seeing the young were seen as pure, perfect, and unblemished, in accord to those God's perfection, that's whom were sacrificed. So the spilling of blood from perfect animals it is. Monkey see monkey do. But then God decides the blood of animals seen pure, perfect, and unblemished was no longer good enough. So taking a cue again from those other surrounding nations, God concedes only the blood sacrifice of a human can suffice for salvation. The problem however is; God has deemed every living human imperfect. So God working that situation knowing he is solely perfect, he thus reincarnates himself in human flesh, so he can satisfy his perfection by conducting a blood sacrifice of himself yet to himself. So no different then, again, than what other surrounding nations were doing with Gods as fathers and humans as mothers; God impregnates a human woman and gives birth to the divine...also known as himself...or in common parlance, a Demigod. So what is asked to be believed is God incarnated himself; to sacrifice himself to himself so you, but only if you believe this true, so you now through a human sacrifice no different than what their neighbors had done, can be cleansed and able to dwell in the adode with God.
Several points:
1) I'm not convinced that God created man perfect. Humanity was created with the intent and potential to grow, to mature, to become. Sin isn't the fall from perfection to imperfection, but a weed in the garden that infects, infests, and stunts the growth of mankind to be the full-fledged and beautiful image-bearers of God we were intended to be. I'm not alone in this thinking, this was also the belief of at least some of the ancient Fathers, such as St. Irenaeus of Lyons.
2) God does not require blood, that's a mistake on the part of reading Scripture. God doesn't need things to be killed, but God does employ the sacrificial system in order to teach His people much larger and important lessons. Lessons learned over time, such as is confessed by David in his Psalm,
" For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; you will not be pleased with a burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise." - Psalm 51:16-17
The role of the sacrifices were not that God could only forgive, could only pardon, if blood was shed and flesh was burnt; but the role of the sacrifices were to lead men to true contrition.
3) The death of Christ is not about a cultic sacrifice: God requiring spilt blood in order to forgive the sins of mankind. The death of Christ is about God's full participation in our humanity, even in death. And by death destroying the power of death. Christus Victor.
Christ doesn't die in order to permit God to save and forgive us; by no means. Christ's death and resurrection IS God saving and forgiving us. Forgiveness is found in the Crucified and Risen Jesus, who overcomes our sin, destroying its power, liberates humanity in His Person, and now draws us into Himself to share in the abundant and divine life found in Himself. It's about God, in Christ, destroying what enslaves and ensnares us and joining us to Himself, even as He has joined Himself to us in Christ.
-CryptoLutheran
__________________ To be crucified with Christ means to be in the business of dying. Our arms should be outstretched, unable to make a fist or be armed to injure. To be crucified is to be too busy suffering, serving, and loving everyone that we don't have time to think ill or wish one harm. "When Christ calls a man, He bids him, 'Come and die.'" (Dietrich Bonhoeffer) | 
9th October 2012, 06:41 PM
| | Senior Veteran

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9th October 2012, 06:46 PM
| | Blood-bought
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Reps: 943,758,700,723,837,440 (power: 943,758,700,723,841) | | Originally Posted by ViaCrucis Several points:
1) I'm not convinced that God created man perfect. Humanity was created with the intent and potential to grow, to mature, to become. Sin isn't the fall from perfection to imperfection, but a weed in the garden that infects, infests, and stunts the growth of mankind to be the full-fledged and beautiful image-bearers of God we were intended to be. I'm not alone in this thinking, this was also the belief of at least some of the ancient Fathers, such as St. Irenaeus of Lyons.
2) God does not require blood, that's a mistake on the part of reading Scripture.
Are you sure about that?
"The first covenant was not put into effect without blood.
When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood. . .
and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. He said, "This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded
you to keep." In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies.
In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood,
and without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness." (Heb 9:18-22)
"And take some of the blood on the altar and some of the anointing oil and sprinkle it on Aaron and his garments and on his sons and their garments. Then he and his sons and their garments will be consecrated." (Ex 29:21)
"Moses slaughtered the bull and took some of the blood, and with his finger he put it on all the horns of the altar to purify the altar. He poured out the rest of the blood at the base of the altar. So he consecrated it to make atonement for it." (Lev 8:15)
"The life of the creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life." (Lev 17:11) God gave blood sacrifice to Adam for atonement, and we see it practiced in Ge 4. The blood sacrifices among the pagans after the flood were corruptions of the blood sacrifices ordained by God at the beginning. The pagan sacrifices are not the origin of blood sacrifice. They are a corruption of the blood sacrifices originating with God at the beginning. God doesn't need things to be killed, but God does employ the sacrificial system in order to teach His people much larger and important lessons. Lessons learned over time, such as is confessed by David in his Psalm,
"For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; you will not be pleased with a burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise." - Psalm 51:16-17
The role of the sacrifices were not that God could only forgive, could only pardon, if blood was shed and flesh was burnt; but the role of the sacrifices were to lead men to true contrition.
Would you please expalin in a practical way how the sacrificial system teaches this lesson. 3) The death of Christ is not about a cultic sacrifice: God requiring spilt blood in order to forgive the sins of mankind.
Are you sure about that?
"Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness." (Heb 9:22)
The blood is the life of the sacrifice.
It is the life of the sacrifice that is required as punishment for sin. The death of Christ is about God's full participation in our humanity, even in death. And by death destroying the power of death. Christus Victor.
Christ doesn't die in order to permit God to save and forgive us; by no means. Christ's death and resurrection IS God saving and forgiving us.
" God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement (propitiation), through faith in his blood." (Ro 3:25) Forgiveness is found in the Crucified and Risen Jesus,
Forgivenss is found through "faith in his blood." (Ro 3:25) who overcomes our sin, destroying its power, liberates humanity in His Person, and now draws us into Himself to share in the abundant and divine life found in Himself. It's about God, in Christ, destroying what enslaves and ensnares us and joining us to Himself, even as He has joined Himself to us in Christ.
Sin can't come into the presence of God. God doesn't join himself to sin. First, sin has to be dealt with.
God justly dealt with our sin by punishing it in Christ's atoning sacrifice on the cross.
Now God can justly forgive those who believe in Christ, by cleansing them of sin, which makes them righteous so that God can then join them to himself.
Scripture shows that God requires blood, because the blood is the life of the sacrifice.
Blood must be applied for cleansing from sin and consecration, because it is the life of Christ sacrificed
in punishment of sin which cleanses the sin of those who believe in him.
That is the Biblical revelation regarding the meaning of Christ's sacrificial death of atonement,
and which modern man finds objectionable.
In the faith,
Clare
Last edited by Clare73; 10th October 2012 at 10:52 AM.
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9th October 2012, 06:52 PM
| | Blood-bought
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__________________ This is what the LORD says: "Let not the wise man boast of his wisdom or the strong man boast of his strength or the rich man boast of his riches, but let him who boasts boast in this: that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight," delcares the LORD. | 
9th October 2012, 07:03 PM
|  | Cultivate Honduras 48 
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Reps: 271,573,656,411,620,480 (power: 271,573,656,411,636) | | Originally Posted by JoyJuice So what is asked to be believed is God incarnated himself; to sacrifice himself to himself so you, but only if you believe this true, so you now through a human sacrifice no different than what their neighbors had done, can be cleansed and able to dwell in the adode with God.
I want to address this part........
The blood of Jesus is for EVERYONE, not "only if you believe this is true". The choice is ours - will we accept this offering of forgiveness and atonement or not?
__________________ Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. 1 Corinthians 14:1 | 
9th October 2012, 09:36 PM
|  | Nubes ex Deus
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Reps: 224,926,669,189,116,768 (power: 224,926,669,189,117) | | Originally Posted by Clare73 It is the life of the sacrifice that is required as punishment for sin.
Blood must be applied for cleansing from sin and consecration, because it is the life of Christ sacrificed in punishment of sin which cleanses the sin of those who believe in him.
I was with your post until the bolded parts.
Yes, the life is in the blood. But: Old Testament sacrifice was not about vicarious punishment. That understanding is the product of late Western Christian eisegesis. It is some other gospel, which is no gospel at all, that was introduced like a wolf among lambs, a teaching not from the beginning, but from the vain imaginations of men's hearts. |  | | | Thread Tools | | | | Display Modes | Linear Mode | | | |