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22nd September 2012, 07:31 AM
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Reps: 58,858,411,406,918,864 (power: 58,858,411,406,919) | | | Why does the First Cause have to be intelligent? Let's assume, for a moment, that the cosmological argument is right and that there's a first cause which caused everything else.
The usual response as to why the first cause doesn't need a cause, unlike everything in nature (let's also assume that quantum physics don't exist), is because it lies outside of nature, hence the rules of nature don't apply to it.
We know that order can only come from an intelligent creator (let's also assume crystals and spherical objects don't exist, either). We know this because we have observed it countless times.
We can say that the rule of design (everything ordered had to be designed by an intelligent creator) is a rule of nature. However, how can we apply this rule to the supernatural? If God doesn't have to follow the natural rule of causality, why does he have to follow the natural rule of design?
Why can't supernatural entities create order without having to be intelligent?
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Last edited by The Engineer; 22nd September 2012 at 07:44 AM.
Reason: Changed an ambiguity.
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22nd September 2012, 07:40 AM
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Reps: 156,817,226,599,785,824 (power: 156,817,226,599,788) | | | clarification please The title of the thread is "Why does the First Cause have to be intelligent?". I take that to mean (using God as the First Cause), "Why does God have to be intelligent?"
You then said Originally Posted by The Engineer Why can't supernatural entities create order without intelligence?
Here, I take your question to be associating intelligence with the order and not the creator.
Are you really asking two questions, or am I just reading you wrong?
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22nd September 2012, 07:44 AM
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Reps: 58,858,411,406,918,864 (power: 58,858,411,406,919) | | Originally Posted by dysert Are you really asking two questions, or am I just reading you wrong?
I meant the without intelligence as in without using intelligence as a tool. It was ambiguous, so I changed it now.
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22nd September 2012, 08:35 AM
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22nd September 2012, 09:25 AM
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Reps: 114,909,339,583,547,216 (power: 114,909,339,583,563) | | Originally Posted by bricklayer The First-Cause must be intelligent because intelligence effectively exists, and no effect can transcend its cause.
If that is true, then you've already ruled out a supernatural cause.
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22nd September 2012, 01:41 PM
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22nd September 2012, 03:00 PM
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Reps: 1,927,105,018,331,140,608 (power: 1,927,105,018,331,147) | | Originally Posted by Archaeopteryx If that is true, then you've already ruled out a supernatural cause.
When you write "supernatural" do mean other than material-spatial-temporal?
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24th September 2012, 07:04 AM
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Reps: 68,748,888,919,290,576 (power: 68,748,888,919,299) | | | It's intelligent because its the first thing that actually works...
...after eons of nothing happening - absolutely nothing - something actually works...
...and if you don't call it intelligent... pretty soon you will forget about it:
the one thing in eons that actually worked and you will forget about it!!! | 
24th September 2012, 07:53 AM
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Reps: 58,858,411,406,918,864 (power: 58,858,411,406,919) | | Originally Posted by Gottservant It's intelligent because its the first thing that actually works...
Non sequitur, and a pretty bad one, too. ...after eons of nothing happening - absolutely nothing - something actually works...
How does it qualify as eons if time didn't exist before God created it? ...and if you don't call it intelligent... pretty soon you will forget about it:
What? the one thing in eons that actually worked and you will forget about it!!!
What am I reading?!
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24th September 2012, 12:09 PM
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Reps: 53,865,277,699,344,800 (power: 53,865,277,699,348) | | | Let us assume that the First Cause is unintelligent. Let us assume that it is some impersonal, unintelligent entity that somehow caused the universe to come into existence.
The question remains: How could an impersonal, unintelligent First Cause give rise to an effect such as you and me who are personal, intelligent entities?
If one wants to maintain that it is incredible that there should exist an intelligent First Cause, is it not much more incredible to maintain that the First Cause is unintelligent? It seems to me to be patently obvious that the latter position is inherently absurd, especially when taking into account the effects that came from this First Cause.
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