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  #21  
Old 16th September 2012, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Sistrin View Post
"If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever."

George Orwell.
Or how about "a hand slapping a soft drink out of a human face-forever."
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  #22  
Old 16th September 2012, 10:16 PM
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It will help because at least people will get extra exercise walking to and from the soda fountain. Sure they're still consuming the same amount of life draining syrup, but at least some of the extra activity will help cancel some of it out.

Lol
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  #23  
Old 16th September 2012, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by mpok1519 View Post
It will help because at least people will get extra exercise walking to and from the soda fountain. Sure they're still consuming the same amount of life draining syrup, but at least some of the extra activity will help cancel it out.


Really?
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  #24  
Old 16th September 2012, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by iluvatar5150 View Post
It's estimated that diabetes in the US costs us $174 Billion dollars/yr. (Source). That's hardly the only obesity-related medical complication.
Alright, I see where you are coming from. Sickness due to obesity leads to loss of productivity and increased medical costs.



Umm... Because the laws say it is. The Constitution gives the federal gov't the right to regulate interstate commerce, and I'm sure if you looked through state constitutions and other municipal charters, you'd find similar language all over the place. Regulating the economy is one of the core functions of gov't.
The original intent of the commerce clause was to prevent States from imposing any kind of burden upon commerce that is interstate, meaning commerce that moves from one state to another. This all with the intent to insure regular free flow of commerce between states without burdens of tolling, irregular taxing schemes, or irregular highway width or rail systems.

As for States or municipalities regulating commerce within their own jurisdiction, you're right, they can regulate economic commerce as directed by their laws and via consent of the people. However, I never made the argument that this law was unconstitutional, merely unreasonable.

This is one of those laws that will have little effect in reducing obesity, will be burdensome to business and the consumer, and will be difficult to enforce. I can just imagine New York City creating the Municipal Regulatory Soda Enforcement Agency. This law wouldn't seem so bad if the people of New York had voted yes to restrict the size of soda beverages. Instead Major Bloomberg just made an executive order to enforce the law.

Medicare and Medicaid are public insurance programs, which are partly funded by state & local money.
Okay that is true. I guess my main point is that healthcare costs are managed primarily through insurance companies. They take the risk related to the expense of increased obesity-related illnesses and I would say that it is the insurance company that have a vested interest in establishing health requirements and set premium charges for coverage. The government does provide coverage in the form of Medicare and Medicaid but as a libertarian I don't believe the government should be in that business or assume that risk.

Your diet isn't being regulated. Commercial packaging is being regulated.
The whole intent of the law is to regulate one's diet indirectly through the regulation of soda size requirements. Of course it won't work, because people are not easily manipulated.

Yeah, that's fine, but you've bought into the libertarian myth that the consequences of an individual's poor choices don't extend beyond that individual. It's not true. Increased medical expenses, strained medical care capacity, and lost productivity affect all of us. I pay for jumbo's soda habit despite the fact that I go to the gym 6 times a week and eat chicken breast and salad all the time.
Yes, each individuals decisions effects the overall economy of a society. However, historically there have always been negative societal costs due to health issues. Some have been resolved through government intervention and others through free enterprise.

There are somethings that should be left alone. Consider prohibition, it was meant to solve a real problem related to health hazards caused by the consumption of alcohol. Unfortunately it lead to a huge organized crime problem in America. We repealed prohibition but the health problems related to alcohol still exists.

It did. But they also had a 64 oz waved in their face for only 25 cents more. Now they won't have that temptation.
Not really, the law does not cover convenience stores. He can still get his 64 oz. Big Gulp if he pleases.

In any case, are people just captive to their own temptations or do you think we are capable of making rational decisions for our own sake. If the 64 oz. Big Gulp is such a great temptation why am I not buying one every time I buy gas? Why are you not drinking one everyday yourself?


It may, but I suspect that people will just reduce their consumption.
Why would people change their habits do to a law? People hate being told what to do by the government. More than likely people will consume more drinks to spite the government.


More than likely you'd drink all of it.
No, I tend to throw away food and drink after my appetite is satisfied.

It doesn't matter how free you are if your will is easily manipulated.
I guess I have no more capacity to make a decision for myself than a plant. Thank god, I have the government to tell me what to do?


But you're ok with corporation manipulation that doesn't have your best interest at heart?!?

-Dan.
Sure, I can always turn off the TV if I don't want to see a commercial. I can't necessarily ignore the government when it enforces new laws.
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  #25  
Old 16th September 2012, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by mpok1519 View Post
It will help because at least people will get extra exercise walking to and from the soda fountain. Sure they're still consuming the same amount of life draining syrup, but at least some of the extra activity will help cancel some of it out.

Lol
Under the law they can still go to the convenience store and by their 64 oz Big Gulp soda. They just can't buy a big soda when they go to a restaurant or movie theater.
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  #26  
Old 16th September 2012, 10:57 PM
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None of this will matter because the law will be a total flop.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7688108-2/#post61400567

Nobody addressed the actual statistics I posted prior, so I figured I'd repost them

The CDC botched their original estimate on the cost and cause of death stats the originally published and admitted it later.

CSPI in cooperation with CDC set the bar so low for what's considered obese & overweight that it makes the problem seem much worse than it actually is.

When CSPI lobbied to get SuperSize, Biggie Size, and King Size removed from the big 3 fast food chains, the obesity stats didn't go down over the past 8 years, they've gone up.
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  #27  
Old 16th September 2012, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by miniverchivi View Post
None of this will matter because the law will be a total flop.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7688108-2/#post61400567

Nobody addressed the actual statistics I posted prior, so I figured I'd repost them

The CDC botched their original estimate on the cost and cause of death stats the originally published and admitted it later.
Heart disease and diabetes are related to obesity.

Regardless, even if these problems don't outright kill people, they cause expensive health problems. It wouldn't surprise me if death was actually cheaper.

-Dan.
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Old 16th September 2012, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by iluvatar5150 View Post
Heart disease and diabetes are related to obesity.

Regardless, even if these problems don't outright kill people, they cause expensive health problems. It wouldn't surprise me if death was actually cheaper.

-Dan.
Yeah, but if you check the figures I provided, not that many people are actually obese. They're setting the bar so low at a 30 BMI for obese and 25 BMI for overweight that it's easy to boost the percentages and create a scare.

If you take a person who's 5 foot 10 inches and 175 pounds, they would be counted in the 'overweight' category. As I mentioned before at 6 foot 2, 190 pounds, I'm in that category.

Is a person who's 6 foot and 220 pounds really a huge burden on the healthcare system?

Most of the "facts" about weight that are fed to us (no pun intended) are myths.

According to an article published by encyclopedia britannica (provided by Case Western school of medicine)...

Studies do show that the relative risk of death among obese people with a Body Mass Index (BMI) at the highest end of the scale (BMI 40) is significantly higher than normal weight people, however studies show that the relative risk of death among overweight people with a BMI of 25-30 is the same as in normal weight people.

The "obesity epidemic" stats they're feeding us are based on the 30 BMI as the standard of obese.

So yes, while there are 36% of Americans with a BMI of between 25-30 (which as I established above doesn't create any greater health risks), the percentage of American's in the actual risk range of BMI 40+ is only 2.1% according to the U.S. National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey.

And even in the BMI 40 category, there are still people who aren't obese



...hardly an "epidemic" worth creating expensive legislation over.
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  #29  
Old 16th September 2012, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris81 View Post
because people are not easily manipulated.

I'm on board with the rest of what you're saying, but I'm going to have to stop you on this one. People are extremely easy to manipulate. I mean, the entire advertising industry is built around it. Pick up a Psych book sometime.


Edit to add:

In fact, larger cups in one of the major reasons attributed to the success of McDonalds.

But the soda makers don’t deserve credit for the invention of supersizing. That distinction belongs to a man named David Wallerstein. Until his death in 1993, Wallerstein served on the board of directors at McDonald’s, but in the fifties and sixties he worked for a chain of movie theaters in Texas, where he labored to expand sales of soda and popcorn — the high-markup items that theaters depend on for their profitability. As the story is told in John Love’s official history of McDonald’s, Wallerstein tried everything he could think of to goose up sales — two-for-one deals, matinee specials — but found he simply could not induce customers to buy more than one soda and one bag of popcorn. He thought he knew why: Going for seconds makes people feel piggish.

Wallerstein discovered that people would spring for more popcorn and soda — a lot more — as long as it came in a single gigantic serving. Thus was born the two-quart bucket of popcorn, the sixty-four-ounce Big Gulp, and, in time, the Big Mac and the jumbo fries, though Ray Kroc himself took some convincing.
http://www.pbs.org/pov/foodinc/omnivores.php

It does bring up an interesting question. Thusfar people have mostly considered the freedom of choice, but could something like this qualify as manipulation?

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Old 16th September 2012, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by JCSr View Post
There is nothing in this law forcing anybody to do anything, so your suggestion that I may be for forced behavior modification is incorrect.

However it is a great idea to teach kids these things of which you speak. I also recommend that people learn to cook food and cut down on restaurant eating in order to have more control over their sugar, salt and fat intake. All of these things must be used with some physical exercise.
Well, making vendors change their selection is making them do something. However, in your same vein, we could not force them to do this, but simply limit their choices by law until it's a natural choice. How about then?
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