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  #501  
Unread 7th November 2012, 02:39 PM
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President Obama to begin second term as a lame-duck. Republicans vow to not co-operate with Obama, even if it means crippling the nation. Now that is truly evil.
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  #502  
Unread 7th November 2012, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by GuardianShua View Post
President Obama to begin second term as a lame-duck. Republicans vow to not co-operate with Obama, even if it means crippling the nation. Now that is truly evil.
Yes, it is. And if this nation goes under, we will know where to lay the blame. I don't care for Obama, but he needs our prayers and cooperation if anything good is to come in the next 4 years.
As much as I didn't want Romney, I'd be saying the same thing had he won. Our President is who he is and he needs our cooperation, not our battles. And until we can give him that, we're doomed to failure and we can't blame him.
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  #503  
Unread 7th November 2012, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by aniello View Post
I had assumed the reader would have the integrity to read the link, her Jewishness is clearly stated in the first 2-3 lines of the "early life etc." section.
Perhaps he doesn't get his information from Wikepedia. I didn't. I hadn't seen anything about her being Reform either.

Originally Posted by aniello View Post
A Jewess attacking ad hominem an old Jew? How very nice. My wife and I are still paying members, in good standing, of both a Conservative Shul and an M.O. Shul, which we attend as regularly as possible, age and distance beginning to limit us somewhat. What you said was naughty. Tsk, tsk.
You are being rude. What does your being a paid member of a synagogue have to do with anything? Do you think that makes you special? Above all others and able to behave any way you like? It doesn't.
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  #504  
Unread 7th November 2012, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by yedida View Post
Our President is who he is and he needs our cooperation, not our battles. And until we can give him that, we're doomed to failure and we can't blame him.
Real talk
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  #505  
Unread 7th November 2012, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by GuardianShua View Post
President Obama to begin second term as a lame-duck. Republicans vow to not co-operate with Obama, even if it means crippling the nation. Now that is truly evil.
If he returns to his pledge of bipartisanship that he 'forgot' last term, I am sure they will work with him. (Both houses of congress ran roughshod over the Republicans for Obama's first two years as they had supermajorities. Most legislation passed at that time was passed without a single Republican vote for it. What he couldn't get by the Republicans in the second half of his term, he passed using executive orders.) If he continues to try and destroy our economy and take over more of the private sector, I hope they gridlock his every move from now until he leaves office in disgrace or is impeached.
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  #506  
Unread 7th November 2012, 11:32 PM
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House Republican, John Boehner signaled Republican openness today as long as entitlements are cut.

Boehner said. "It involves making real changes to the financial structure of entitlement programs, and reforming our tax code to curb special-interest loopholes and deductions. By working together and creating a fairer, simpler, cleaner tax code, we can give our country a stronger, healthier economy."

Boehner said. "A 'balanced' approach isn't balanced if it means higher tax rates on the small businesses that are key to getting our economy moving again and keeping it moving."

In other words, cut social programs and keep Bush trickledown economics favoring the wealthy.
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  #507  
Unread 12th November 2012, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by sevengreenbeans View Post
When looking at the foundation of a man...
Mormon: anti-Torah...false prophet, false priesthood, false doctrine, replacement theology...belief that Mormons represent the "stick of Joseph", baptism of Holocaust victims by proxy, thereby converting them to Mormonism...heresy.
Israel=secular gov't, but a Jew supporting a Mormon/Catholic platform?

Does this seem strange to anyone else???

However, politics involves a common agenda, which goes beyond religious viewpoint. It seems government is more concerned with the world view. The general public has become spectators of "globalization".
It is interesting to see the ways that things evolved when it comes to the religious views promoted/tolerated by governments.

Romney does not worship the Christian God...or the God of the Bible..

Mormonism was never considered Christianity when it broke off during what was known as the Restorationist era (more here and here and here). It has repeatedly been denounced by mainstream Christianity for decades when it comes to core values of Christianity that are denied---from the beliefs that blacks are cursed to the belief that God had sex with other divine beings in order to make spirit children like Jesus/Lucifer (seen as brothers) to saying God the Father used to be a man like us from another galaxy and claiming men can become like him/rule other universes (blasphemy). What others have often noted is that people were willing to denounce it as "un-Christian" when it wasn't the case that it'd be in the forefront of the Republican party...but once one for it won, the loyalty to the GOP has influenced many to soften up and make previous stances be as if they were never there.

IMHO, all groups of people not trusting in Christ as He expressed of himself are decieved...but there are levels of deception. There are, of course, MANY people who'd grow up in Mormonism not fully aware of what it teaches--but when presented it and refusing to turn away from it (as Romney has), that's a different issue altogether. I do believe it's possible for one to be involved in Mormonism and be a believer due to the issue of revelation being limited at times...

Speaking personally for myself, people such as Philip Jenkins have been the people I learn from at times and they've been of great benefit when it comes to the issue of Mormonism and how to see it...seeing how much they've spread/advanced over the years. He at one point of his book "The Next Christendom" allowed for the inclusion of Mormons in the advancement of Global Christianity...but he made clear that he did so specifically in considering them as "semi-Christian" (p. 66).... something many Mormons take issue with. When reading the book fully, it seemed clear that Jenkins was never saying he personally felt that Mormonism was in any way representative of what Biblical Christianity is at any level. It had many Christian themes and aspects---but the Christ of Mornomism and that of what the early Jewish church felt are 2 radically different things.

There's a need to categorize what specific groups are apart of Christendom--including those groups which are in Abberational Christianity, where they may "major on minors and minor on majors"...leading them to no longer really be reflective of historical Christianity even as it may still hold aspects of it in tack. Single doctrines are never held in isolation from other doctrines, but rather is always part of a system or network of beliefs held by a person or group. And sometimes that system of beliefs includes many doctrines which are orthodox/biblical as well as some which are heretical in a damaging sense. For example, a religious group might hold that the Bible is the Word of God, that there is only one God, that Jesus was born of a virgin and rose from the dead, and yet deny the deity of Jesus Christ. Such a group's belief system is heretical, even though it contains many true beliefs. Moreover, a group's heretical beliefs generally lead them to misunderstand or misapply even those true beliefs they do confess, since the beliefs tend to be interdependent and thus mutually affect one another. Additionally, people often hold conflicting beliefs. Because people are often inconsistent, in some cases they may hold to orthodox beliefs but also hold to beliefs that undermine or contradict their orthodox beliefs. IMHO, this is definately the case with Mormonism

There are many stories of Ex-Mormons who noted they believed Jesus was the Savior/Messiah and needed to trust in Him, even though they weren't fully aware of all the errors within Mormonism...and they got basic components of the faith where they were at.

That said, I don't see where the scriptures EVER allowed for others to be given revelation of who Christ is and to still be good when they blantantly turn away from what the Lord said in favor of a lie. The first commandment alongside the second are key issues for those trusting in Messiah, as believing that God alone is GOD and there is no other like him is something that was never taken lightly---and anyone claiming that God was once a man just like us and we can become God sets the stage for an WORLD of apostasy/blasphemy.

And for Republican friends who see Romney as the hope of our country's future, and belittle the importance of his Mormon faith, anyone knowing the summary of Mormonism would be wise. At the church I grew up at, it was never treated as a light issue.



The issue of celestial sex that God apparently had with another female deity in order to produce Christ and the Devil amongst other wacky beliefs found within Mormonism---I'm surprised so many act as if that's not an issue and thinking "Oh...well, it's not really that bad of deception or that much against scripture"---for it's another religion entirely, especially when claiming that men will be able to become like God the Father at some point and rule in another universe if they do well enough in their works. President Obama has NEVER come remotely close to advocating anything close to that and I think it wise that many Evangelicals have pointed that out when noting what the President believes/how it's far more Biblical than anything else offered in other presidential options ( #1#18 and #131 )

Can't say I'm very excited about the prospect of having a man who holds to this theology in office..just as I wasn't in 2008 when the man ran for office and during the 2012 election.

Beyond that, there's also the issue of polygamists and many wishing to have that lifestyle pushed when someone gets into office supporting their views..awaiting if he'll speak against the legality of polygamous marriages in Utah and other places... I don't think it's right how so many are focusing on Romney's polygamous ancestry---but it'll be interesting to see if he'll shut it down for good in the U.S where it occurs.

Other issues with his beliefs/how he feels toward blacks are significant enough. Where the Mormon church stands on blacks is never acceptable (more here, here, here / here/here ), regardless of Romney trying to get past that as if it's a non-issue. He has already been called out multiple times on commentary/policies he has supported that do not really favor black communities---and I'm not surprised as to why in light of his faith. Black Republicans, regardless of what Romney says, are right (IMHO) to note that Romney's lack of interest in the black community is shameful....just as much as with President Obama's actions.


His stances toward Hispanics also don't seem favorale, IMHO, as it concerns immigration---ironic, IMHO, in light of his background[


It's interesting to see what happens with the inconsistency when saying at one point someone will never support someone...and yet they'll go for them when their party endorses them.

From where I stand, it does seem that much of the switching of stances (and the basis of it being fear for what may come) is a revelation in how circumstances---and not faith---often determine the choices of others. This election isn't the first time Romney brought issues of compromise to the service. I'm reminded of what occurred with Dr.James Dobson of "Focus on the Family" (one of the largest religious right/pro-life groups around) and many others way back in 2008 (before President Obama was elected) and how many were speaking out against Romney just as they were against Obama and other cannidates who didn't walk in righteousness.

Dobson/others raised fuss about President Obama being with Reverend Jeremiah Wright in his church, concerning Black Liberation Theology. Many blasted the church on the theology, not even knowing fully what it was about or seeing what Liberation Theology is pratically and how there are differing variations of it---and Dobson, in his view, said it was wrong to elect a president who (in his mind) went to a racist chuch. Dobson, being Religious Right, was vehemently against anything concerning support of the President during the era he was running (more here and here ).


And yet with Rommney, he switched. For with President Obama, he said that Christians should never vote for a president who has religious standards not lining up with the Bible since it could influence their presidency....and he said the same thing of Rommney at one point due to his Mormon background. But when Rommney became the most PROMINENT Republican cannidate at one point, all talk on religious background went OUT the window and he started saying how religious right people need to vote to Rommney since he is "qualified" to lead (more here/ here ).

Thankfully, he has tried to come back to seeing the reality of corruption on all sides and encouraging believers to make a radical stand in not approving of any side that is not sold out for the Lord (more shared here/ here )...similar to others in history such as Deitrick Bonheffer and others in Germany when seeing the ways elections were set up and how they refused to endorse any party that was sold out to things the Lord said he hated..
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  #508  
Unread 12th November 2012, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by GuardianShua View Post
The Billy Graham Evangelistic Association confirmed on Tuesday that it had removed all references to Mormonism as a “cult” from its website after their founder announced his support of Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney. Billy Graham Evangelistic Association Addresses Critics on Support for Romney
I don't think it'd be wrong to note that the Evangelical Association has essentially commited suicide in endorsing Romney..

There's an interesting article on what you noted that I think you may be intrigued by..entitlted How the Evangelicals Doomed the Republican Party, God, and Mabye America - Patheos

It's interesting seeing how Mormonism has long taught that it was meant to become the faith that'd dominante America....and even though the election led in the loss of a Mormon President, it's interesting to see what was opened up due to people championing it.

Many on the Conservative Evangelical side have long expressed desires for a theocracy in no uncertain terms..especially when it comes to the reality of culture wars dominating the Evangelical landscape for a long time and others seeking to promote their ideas of how the nation should be run from a Christian perspective. ..be it voting against gay marriage or wanting to have prayer/10 commandments in school and many other things.

However, the election involved many interesting factors that've arisen to actually open the door for Evangelicals to have a theocracy that's really not what they were expecting - as seen in what often happened when many said they'd NEVER support someone who was Mormon due to it being against Christian values and yet went with it anyway, justifying it because a Mormon was the head of the party they tended to place their Chrisitan values at squarely - and thus, they ended up advocating for the idea that a Mormon could lead the nation as God's representative of the Christian values they held to....and essentially, giving Mormonism the pass it needed to promote itself as God's Divine Ideal of what Theocracy looks like.

One of my brothers in CHrist alerted me to an article his friend had written that had given a very interesting critique of the Republican party and the way it seemed to evolve - both by choice and by force....and with there being a lot of realization that the party isn't as consistent on its stances as they often told others to believe.

In his words, as it concerns their choice on Romney to begin with:








Now that Mitt Romney has secured the Republican Party nomination, one major constituency group within the GOP will find itself wrestling with party vs. faith. The party leaders have asked conservative evangelicals to vote for a Mormon. Now for me and other religious progressives who have been hard at work establishing and working within ecumenical groups and dialoguing with all faiths, this does not pose a problem. For us, religion is about a faithful and authentic response to God and humankind. How one discerns the Divine in one’s life is in the final analysis, a personal decision. Moreover, we do not believe that one’s religion should effect how one should vote for president or any political office. Policies matter—ones the candidate believes in and ones that the candidate’s party supports and promises to deliver if elected to office.

However, this is not the case with conservative evangelicals. They are dogmatically Christian, believing that a candidate’s religion must reflect their own. Many conservative evangelicals do not believe that Romney is Christian—believing that the Mormon faith is not a Christian faith. Furthermore, many of these same conservative evangelicals believe that a Romney presidency may help “legitimize a false religion.” In 1998, the Southern Baptists, at their Convention held in Mormon rich Salt Lake City, went door to door evangelizing Mormons and promoting a book Mormonism Unmasked. Religious conservatives (evangelicals) rallied earlier in the year in Texas to try to support a candidate not named Romney. Santorum emerged as their pick (a Roman Catholic and not a Protestant) but earlier there was even a flirtation from evangelicals with the spectacularly flawed Newt Gingrich.

To be sure, Romney was anathema to many conservative evangelicals. Conservatives brought this out in the open when early in the campaign conservative evangelical declared Mormonism a “cult” and said to an audience "born-again followers of Christ should always prefer [a] competent Christian to a competent non-Christian like Mitt Romney." Commentators have even noticed that Santorum is less than enthusiastic about supporting Romney.

However, not all of this has stop conservative evangelicals from lining up and supporting Romney. In a recent article, Jonathan Merritt writes about the unexpected evangelical silence on Romney’s religion. In the article, he notes that one reason why conservative evangelicals are supporting Romney is theirs and Mormon’s support of “traditional marriage” and other political conservative ideals. Nevertheless, this should not make a difference, because theologically, conservative evangelicals should not vote for a person who is a non-Christian.

Maybe therein lies the rub. Maybe conservative evangelicals were hiding behind religious faith family values all along. Maybe it was never about any of that anyway. Maybe it was all about politics, winning offices, and promoting a conservative agenda. If it was about theology, faith, and religion, drawing upon the teachings of conservative evangelicalism, they should line up supporting Obama. Obama is the “Christian” who has “accepted Jesus Christ in the pardon of his sins.” He is the one baptized into the faith who has affirmed that Jesus is Lord and Savior. Obama repents of his sins and affirms the Triune God of Christianity.

Studies show that Obama talks about faith, religion, Christianity, God, and the church more so than any other president in modern history. His speeches are full of religious rhetoric, the speeches at the prayer breakfasts constructs what I call a rhetorical theology aimed at inviting his audience to understand faith. If there is one candidate in the race that conservative evangelicals should support, based on their own previous criteria and theological presuppositions, it is President Obama.

However, conservative evangelicals are going to support Romney is overwhelming numbers and somehow reconcile teachings about Mormonism that call the religion “false,” a “cult,” or “non-Christian.” As an ecumenical religious leader, I want to say that maybe conservative evangelicals are evolving (again something else that would be anathema to many of them) toward ecumenicism and to having inter-religious dialogue.

Moreover, as he wrote in reflection of the election results and how others felt:
As I reflect on the 2012 election, the first group that comes to mind is conservative evangelicals who, despite their former beliefs and protestations about Mormonism, supported Mitt Romney, a devout Mormon. As I wrote about earlier when I began to see this trend happening, there is nothing wrong with conservative evangelicals supporting a Mormon candidate. I even suggested that maybe some in the conservative evangelical wing of the Republican Party were evolving to some sort of ecumenicalism that would lead to a more inter-religious dialogue. This would not be the case however, as many of them—who before believed that Mormonism was a “cult,” “non-Christian,” dismissed those ingrained beliefs and convinced others to do the same.


My thought is that many of them still do believe this and now will have to reconcile the fact that they rejected their own teachings about their faith. For many, it will cause some major theological cognitive dissonance. Before this election year, conservative evangelicals reminded their followers that they should support candidates who shared their beliefs and values. In short, they must support a Christian. That candidate, based on the conservative evangelical belief system, would have been president Obama.


However, they decided to support someone who they heretofore believed did not share their faith because of their own anti-Obama feelings. I imagine some may be wrestling with this because, for many conservative evangelicals, the faith is paramount; one should practice it unflinchingly and waveringly against all manner of temptations. In this instance, the temptation of replacing Obama as president was too good to pass up. So not only did they not adhere to their own principles embedded in their theology, but they also shirked their Christian beliefs by acting in ways that were not “ Christlike” because of their disdain for the President. But their efforts seemed to work because Romney received 79% of the conservative evangelical vote.


The other group I am reflecting on this morning is the group of African American clergy who led efforts to get black Christians not to vote for Obama because of his evolved position on marriage equality. Led by Rev. William Owens and Bishop Harry Jackson, this group of black clergy led their own voter suppression campaign as they attempted to appeal to congregants within the black church to get black people to vote for anyone besides Obama or just not to vote at all. Their attempts of voter suppression seemed not to work because the president received 95% of the African Americans church vote, up 1% from 2008.


Moreover, these would be leaders will also have to go back to their congregations in the aftermath of this election and explain to them why they would participate in an act that many (church going) African Americans feel as sacred. They also will have to explain their seemly selective critique of the president—namely why of the different policies that clergy leaders could and some would argue rightfully justify as a substantial critique, would they select this one? When one remembers that the president’s evolution was only a personal opinion and not policy, I believe one has the right to be suspect of Rev. Owens and Bishop Jackson’s “concern.”


However, this may all be for not. In talking with R3 contributor Earle Fisher on a panel this morning as we reflected on the election, he suggests they these two conservative groups would not have to offer any mea culpas or to use a religious term “confess.” His reasoning is that they do this knowing that their theological positions on paper have never matched their actions. You know, he is right. Conservative ideology and its kissing cousin, conservative theology has always been about maintaining the status quo; clogging up progress, grinding the forces of change. While both of these conservative groups, in an ideal world, have an opportunity to reshape and reconfigure their theological thought processes, chances are that they will not take advantage of the opportunity.
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Unread 12th November 2012, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by GuardianShua View Post
President Obama to begin second term as a lame-duck. Republicans vow to not co-operate with Obama, even if it means crippling the nation. Now that is truly evil.
If they don't work with the president, they ensure their own demise later on as well - and people will quickly grow tired of them...
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Unread 12th November 2012, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Easy G (G) View Post
If they don't work with the president, they ensure their own demise later on as well - and people will quickly grow tired of them...
If they work with him without holding him accountable, they will ensure our demise as a nation. It took the Republicans winning both houses to bring Clinton around to welfare reform and other cost-cutting legislation which Clinton eventually signed and took credit for.
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