Not feeling that loyal to my country

Dorothea · #21 22nd August 2012, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by Bourne

I feel the same way, growing up I was a pretty zealous patriot but in recent years I think I've grown disillusioned to some degree. The meaningless squabbling that takes place politically gets tiresome.

I think part of the problem though is that a lot of Christians (I can't speak for Orthodoxy) have placed our country on a pedestal as though our country is "Gods gift to the world" and with that seems to have come a measure of hubris—granted it's not exclusive to the Christian community. For me, the more conflict in the near east and our biased support of certain factions and movements without any regard for the bigger picture has brought a lot of what our country stands for in to question for me.

I agree, Bourne.

rusmeister · #22 22nd August 2012, 10:05 PM

G. K. Chesterton really helped me out a lot on patriotism. Mainly, I learned that there IS such a thing, and it is valid. But far from admiring flags or the distant victories of "our troops" abroad, it is about loving our friends and family, the place we grew up in and have our roots in.

It absolutely does not mean supporting whatever our government is doing; much more often it must mean criticizing and trying to improve it. But all that means that it must be local. It is far easier and wiser to be a patriot of San Jose or Mobile or Austin or Albany or even Moscow than it is to try to love far-off things that you have never seen. So if there is a flag of your town (and there IS for mine), then that can be saluted with no confusion or doubt.

We should also love this world in a sense, not in the Scriptural avaricial sense, but in the sense of desiring its improvement, as something outside of ourselves that God has given to us for a while to be stewards over, and that is where legitimate patriotism comes from. But tuere is a practical limit to what a human can do, and generally speaking, there is a much more serious limit on what we can do for huge human civilizations. We are supposed to love our neighbor, and if we do, we shouldn't have a whole lot of time for far off lands, even if we are told that they are "ours".

Dorothea · #23 22nd August 2012, 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by rusmeister

G. K. Chesterton really helped me out a lot on patriotism. Mainly, I learned that there IS such a thing, and it is valid. But far from admiring flags or the distant victories of "our troops" abroad, it is about loving our friends and family, the place we grew up in and have our roots in.

It absolutely does not mean supporting whatever our government is doing; much more often it must mean criticizing and trying to improve it. But all that means that it must be local. It is far easier and wiser to be a patriot of San Jose or Mobile or Austin or Albany or even Moscow than it is to try to love far-off things that you have never seen. So if there is a flag of your town (and there IS for mine), then that can be saluted with no confusion or doubt.

We should also love this world in a sense, not in the Scriptural avaricial sense, but in the sense of desiring its improvement, as something outside of ourselves that God has given to us for a while to be stewards over, and that is where legitimate patriotism comes from. But tuere is a practical limit to what a human can do, and generally speaking, there is a much more serious limit on what we can do for huge human civilizations. We are supposed to love our neighbor, and if we do, we shouldn't have a whole lot of time for far off lands, even if we are told that they are "ours".

What a lovely post. Thanks, Rus.

gurneyhalleck1 · #24 22nd August 2012, 10:49 PM

I like San Jose. Giants, Sharks, Niners country...

Originally Posted by rusmeister

G. K. Chesterton really helped me out a lot on patriotism. Mainly, I learned that there IS such a thing, and it is valid. But far from admiring flags or the distant victories of "our troops" abroad, it is about loving our friends and family, the place we grew up in and have our roots in.

It absolutely does not mean supporting whatever our government is doing; much more often it must mean criticizing and trying to improve it. But all that means that it must be local. It is far easier and wiser to be a patriot of San Jose or Mobile or Austin or Albany or even Moscow than it is to try to love far-off things that you have never seen. So if there is a flag of your town (and there IS for mine), then that can be saluted with no confusion or doubt.

We should also love this world in a sense, not in the Scriptural avaricial sense, but in the sense of desiring its improvement, as something outside of ourselves that God has given to us for a while to be stewards over, and that is where legitimate patriotism comes from. But tuere is a practical limit to what a human can do, and generally speaking, there is a much more serious limit on what we can do for huge human civilizations. We are supposed to love our neighbor, and if we do, we shouldn't have a whole lot of time for far off lands, even if we are told that they are "ours".

buzuxi02 · #25 22nd August 2012, 11:03 PM

Aside from recognizing that theres good and bad aspects in all nations. I'm probably the worst kind of citizen imaginable. I do harshly criticise my country including the sacred cows such as the founding fathers. At the same time i also defend it against critics, I would fight for it. Infact i believe going to war over oil is one of the better reasons to go to war over (way better than the wars with vietnam or korea or yugoslavia and even a better reason than to liberate a nation we know nothing about like Libya or Syria). So i have no problem in America defending her interests.

With that said though, i could see myself selling states secrets and becoming a traitor at the same time, or to a lesser degree simply emigrating on out of here. This would probably apply to any country i lived in, .

gurneyhalleck1 · #26 22nd August 2012, 11:17 PM

Frankly, I have more of a cynical feeling about humanity in general rather than countries. I have worked with so many back-stabbing teachers and have watched so much hypocrisy with not only teachers, but especially administrators, parents, neighbors, people I've worked with in other places, "friends," even people at churches in the past, that I think people are just plain muffed-up. I'm kind of at an Agent Muldur X Files phase of my life where I trust pretty much no one except my wife, parents, and my own kids. We live in an age where parents don't read to their kids, help them with homework, they want kids to self-parent, and they get mad at all the wrong things.

Nobody wants to be accountable for anything. Everything in our culture is adverserial. We need unions to protect us from psycho bosses, reps to protect us from parents, child advocates to protect kids from their own parents, you name it. All I need is a kid to say he/she wants out of my classroom and accuse me of saying something rude or mean and the principal takes the kid into the office, interviews him/her, talks to the parent, watches the teacher, then deliberates. There is very little trust in the adult in this day and age.

In other industries, employees aren't valued either. People are considered monkeys who provide a service until they outlive their usefullness.

I'm tired of how a soldier is sent off to foreign lands in such a cavalier fashion with so little value placed on their lives. Then the soldier, in his loyalty, praises and lauds the crumb president who sends him off so recklessly.

People are such liars, cheat, sex fiends, gossipers, and just generally mean. We live in a mean-spirited age. Doesn't matter if you're American or from Timbuktu. People are mean now. It's the "in" thing. The animal cruelty, abortions, "alternate" lifestyles, and just overall inhumanity we see in humanity itself is far more disheartening than any political geographical, national entities. I'm disappointed in the human race more than any governmental body in particular. My job has just exposed me to the underbelly of bad parents and ugliness that exists.....

So I guess my disgust is more global!

buzuxi02 · #27 22nd August 2012, 11:40 PM

Hmmm, should we bring this up on our next confession?

gurneyhalleck1 · #28 23rd August 2012, 01:01 AM

What makes you think I haven't already? Being a hermit from the human race is attractive to me at times!!!

I'm just in a funk lately about the way society is going based on what I see. It's pretty sad. And the silly stuff that goes on in the system. shrug

And, P.S., wars for oil are absurd. At least Vietnam was an attempt to help a nation stay free and stop communism and the same with Korea. The wars in Iraq were basically more emphasizing war profiteering with Haliburton and defense contracts and private firms for security like Blackwater than it had to do with actual wars against terrorism.

I'll mention my frustrations with humans at my confession, you mention your passive acceptance of warring for oil at yours and we'll call it a draw....

Originally Posted by buzuxi02

Hmmm, should we bring this up on our next confession?

Gxg (G²) · #29 23rd August 2012, 01:03 AM

Originally Posted by Dorothea

Yesterday, coming out of the commissary with mom and my boys, we happened to be walking through the parking lot when we had to stop for the playing of the National Anthem (which plays every day in the early morning and at 5:00 in the evening). I'd forgotten somewhat because we haven't been on base since up in WA. We did the standing and placing our hands on our hearts. I wasn't as moved as I used to be. I'm not as patriotic as I once was years ago. I felt kinda like there is over emphasis on the flag and being sure we venerate it and this country. It felt a little like one could get carried away and make it an idol...and I think I did to a certain extent years ago. Is it wrong for me to not have such loyalty and devotion to my country and its flag? Am I some sort of traitor because I put God above the country I grew up in and have lived in all my life with freedoms that some countries don't have?

I've always wondered whether or not saying the pledge of allegiance even means the same as it used to and whether it's valid---for when it comes to saying "One Nation, Under God", I don't really think that is played out anymore. In many ways, the nation never was fully under God as evidenced by the many ways it willfully went against Him....and everytime I see the U.S Coins "In God We Trust", I think the same thing. How can one make a pledge of allegiance to something that doesn't really live up to what it says?

ArmyMatt · #30 23rd August 2012, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by Easy G (G²)

I've always wondered whether or not saying the pledge of allegiance even means the same as it used to and whether it's valid---for when it comes to saying "One Nation, Under God", I don't really think that is played out anymore. In many ways, the nation never was fully under God as evidenced by the many ways it willfully went against Him....and everytime I see the U.S Coins "In God We Trust", I think the same thing. How can one make a pledge of allegiance to something that doesn't really live up to what it says?

prolly because there are enough out there that still find a lot of deep meaning in those phrases.