Isn't there something weird about the charges in Sweden? Like that he his being accused of consensual sex without a condom? That seems a bit different to what we mean by rape.
It isn't rape. The charges he is facing are far less serious, as far as I'm aware. Yes, he should be extradited to face Swedish justice for violating Swedish laws, but it isn't worth spending too much public money on.
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It isn't rape. The charges he is facing are far less serious, as far as I'm aware. Yes, he should be extradited to face Swedish justice for violating Swedish laws, but it isn't worth spending too much public money on.
The guy posting before you said it was rape.... I don't know.....
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"Rape" in Sweden includes any unconcentual sexual act if I'm not mistaken. Dunno all the facts about the case but even if he had sex with a woman without a condom after she demanded one its technicly rape even if it was concentual. There are degrees of rape in Sweden like with say killing someone and this is one of the lighter ones.
Also Assange and his lawyers are making a demand that anyone who spent 1 hour in legal class knows the swedish government cant oblige to even if they wanted. The courts are without political interference in Sweden and all extraditing cases are handled by the courts and not the government or any department there of. There were a case back after 9/11 where two people got extradited by the government w/o due process by the courts that the Assange camp likes to bring up but what they always "forget" to mention is that there were a massive political backlash from it when it got discovered (we're talking impeachment class stuff here).
Whats funny about Assange and wikileaks statements though is that they somehow seem to forget that it was Sweden who took them under its wings back when this all started and Wikileaks got moved to Swedish servers because it was harder to get them there not the mention that "big evil conspiracy" Sweden was the beacon of freedom back when it unconditionally covered Assanges butt Gonna be funny to see what they have to say about Ecuador in afew years. Besides atleast Assange has become a whore for the Anti-USA countries. He had his own TV show on a russian propaganda channel for Putin where he interviewed pretty much everyone with a beef against the US.
The Ecuadorian president is a coward. He knows he can score cheap points for pretending to stand up against the big evil USA and the "colonial forces" and pretend he's "holding the barricade" while he at the same time knows there is no risk whatsoever that USA or the UK will actually come after him so he'll never actully be forced to really hold the barricade.
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Last edited by Museveni; 20th August 2012 at 02:19 PM.
The thing alot of people seem to forget is not only was the US embarassed by the release of information, alot of countries were angered by the release of diplomatic cables that turned out to be embarassing.
Alot of countries who wouldn't normally help the US in this will just to get back at him. They get their pound of flesh and the US gets to look like a bad guy.
The media loves the whole thing because Assange did what they've forgotten how to do... journalism.
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THE NEW BOSS: JUST LIKE THE OLD BOSS.
"Some people say journalism is in decline, they say you've become too politicized, too focused on sensationalism, they say you no longer honor your duty to inform America but instead actively divide us so that your corporate overlord can rake in the profits," Kimmel said. "I don't have a joke for this, it's just what some people say."
Again, I think a lot of people are being far, FAR to cavalier in how they think about our legal systems. We have checks and balances. We have independent judiciaries that have oversight over these decisions. Mr. Assange went through not only a judicial review of his case, but also two levels of appeals - which is more than is usually required.
Here are the facts. Mr Assange is accused by two women. One accuses him of forcing himself on top of her, sexual assault by deception of said woman (by lying about the presence of a condom knowing that a condom was deemed, by the woman, the only way she'd consent to sex), and in another case he "deliberately molested" her.
The other woman accused him of having sex with her, without a condom, while she was asleep.
Yes - asleep. As in unconscious. As in literally unable to give consent. Sex without consent is rape (or sexual assault in nations that group it together). Could these accusations be wrong and he be proven innocent? Yes - but he's wanted in connection with these crimes. Let him go and face the charges he's wanted for. Instead of flying to the embassy of a man that does NOT have democratic protections and oversight for his people. A man who runs a country that does NOT provide due process, a man who jails journalists, engages in human rights abuses, and is precisely the sort of guy you'd expect a crusader for justice to go after.
Let's be very clear here - one reason why the UK police now have to dedicate their resources to this nonsense is because of Mr. Assange's irresponsibility. Some have pointed out that he offered to let the Swedes interview him in the Ecuadorian embassy. Do people not understand what a problem for the rule of law this would be?
Yeah the persecuted individual is at fault - not the huge state apparatuses at play. Cool story.
He had a lawful extradition hearing by an unbiased court. He then had a lawful appeal hearing by an unbiased court. He even had the High Court, the Supreme Court of the UK, hear his case and uphold the initial hearing judge. If he's free to ignore all of this, then you're in effect creating a two tiered justice system. One for the ordinary citizens, and one for the rich and powerful with rich and powerful friends. That's anathema for a Western justice system that's built on the rule of law. You would have us destroy our civil society and the entire justice system for one spoiled little brat that chants "they're out to get me! They're all out to get me!"? It's too important.
Destroy your civil society? Yeah the UK had a perfectly functioning civil society up until now.
As for the charge - I have to say it's really odd seeing (across the net) some of the same people that say "rape is rape! don't blame the victims!" and the like suddenly jump ship for this guy. It's like Roman Polanski defenders (yes, if you're defending one, you SHOULD be defending the other and vice versa). One charge he potentially faces is not using a condom - after assuring the victim he was wearing one and that she would not consent if he didn't. Given all we know about STDs, pregnancy, and the dangers of unprotected sex it's fairly clear (to me at least) that it's a decently big deal to give the greenlight to lying about having a condom not counting as some kind of sexual assault. He also held one victim down and forced himself on top of her. A third charge stems from his having sexual relations with a sleeping woman (and come on - find me ONE person educated on rape that would claim that sex with an unconscious person is not rape).
These are serious charges. There was a valid extradition request. He had multiple layers of due process and received far more consideration and deliberation than an average person in a similar situation would have faced.
Here are some actual facts...
When he left Sweden, he was told he was free to leave as the prosecutor in the case dismissed it. after he'd left, a new prosecutor reopened it and put out at an arrest warrant.
From day 1 he offered to be interviewed in the UK, either by video link or in person, or whatever other means necessary that didn't involve going back to Sweden. He was happy to go to the Swedish embassy in London, but they refused all options.
In trying to negotiate with Sweden, the Ecuadorians requested Swedish officials conduct the interview at the Ecuadorian embassy. again, they refused and gave no explanation why.
Sweden confirmed that once extradited he would be imprisoned indefinitely, without charge.
Then there's the consideration of what if the US request his extradition from Sweden. So what? We're not dealing with a US client regime or a dictatorial mess like Syria or somewhere similar. We're talking about an independent, thoroughly neutral, modern Social Democracy. Sweden doesn't have a tinpot judiciary - they have actual due process and laws about when they do and do not extradite people - including to the US. Is it possible that he would be? Yes - but only if he legally should be based on what he's done, what's covered by the US-Swedish extradition treaty, and if it all meets the satisfaction of Swedish judicial officials as to their public policy.
Oh we are ignoring several decades of US hegemony? Again, cool magical politics story.
I'm not opposed to truth in government. Heck, I'm not even opposed to wikileaks - I think keeping government honest with its citizens is important. I AM opposed to letting one man ride above the law.
Cry about the destruction of the foundations of English law and civil society. *insert meme* Tony Blair rich and free.
Again, I think a lot of people are being far, FAR to cavalier in how they think about our legal systems. We have checks and balances. We have independent judiciaries that have oversight over these decisions. Mr. Assange went through not only a judicial review of his case, but also two levels of appeals - which is more than is usually required.
Again, lol.
Here are the facts. Mr Assange is accused by two women. One accuses him of forcing himself on top of her, sexual assault by deception of said woman (by lying about the presence of a condom knowing that a condom was deemed, by the woman, the only way she'd consent to sex), and in another case he "deliberately molested" her.
The other woman accused him of having sex with her, without a condom, while she was asleep.
Yes - asleep. As in unconscious. As in literally unable to give consent. Sex without consent is rape (or sexual assault in nations that group it together). Could these accusations be wrong and he be proven innocent? Yes - but he's wanted in connection with these crimes. Let him go and face the charges he's wanted for. Instead of flying to the embassy of a man that does NOT have democratic protections and oversight for his people. A man who runs a country that does NOT provide due process, a man who jails journalists, engages in human rights abuses, and is precisely the sort of guy you'd expect a crusader for justice to go after.
Calls an individuals accusation in a heavily politicised trans-national event a fact *meme* Thinks wanted for questioning is the same as arrest extradition.
Also Assange and his lawyers are making a demand that anyone who spent 1 hour in legal class knows the swedish government cant oblige to even if they wanted. The courts are without political interference in Sweden and all extraditing cases are handled by the courts and not the government or any department there of. There were a case back after 9/11 where two people got extradited by the government w/o due process by the courts that the Assange camp likes to bring up but what they always "forget" to mention is that there were a massive political backlash from it when it got discovered (we're talking impeachment class stuff here).
Oh well if people say it is domestically incorruptible and void of international relations then surely it must be?
Whats funny about Assange and wikileaks statements though is that they somehow seem to forget that it was Sweden who took them under its wings back when this all started and Wikileaks got moved to Swedish servers because it was harder to get them there not the mention that "big evil conspiracy" Sweden was the beacon of freedom back when it unconditionally covered Assanges butt Gonna be funny to see what they have to say about Ecuador in afew years. Besides atleast Assange has become a whore for the Anti-USA countries.
Talks about Russian propaganda *meme* uses Anti-USA as a serious phrase.
He had his own TV show on a russian propaganda channel for Putin where he interviewed pretty much everyone with a beef against the US.
You mean people like Tariq Ali, Chomsky, Zizek, etc? What should be staple education in the West? What is whore-wellian about that situation is having to use the Kremlin as the only outlet for a show such as that.
The Ecuadorian president is a coward.
Standing up to powerful states makes someone a coward? Sup Orwell.
He knows he can score cheap points for pretending to stand up against the big evil USA and the "colonial forces" and pretend he's "holding the barricade" while he at the same time knows there is no risk whatsoever that USA or the UK will actually come after him so he'll never actully be forced to really hold the barricade.
A world where developing nations are free to dissent against powerful states without fear of being destroyed? What kind of disgusting utopia are we moving in to now.
While I hold no respect for Mr.Assange or his collaborator in this matter, I would say given the issue of national security that blankets this whole issue, that there stands to be a great deal we don't know about Mr.Assange's involvement in what we may comprehend as just the tip of the iceberg.
And to think, he sounded so self-righteous and arrogant before. Even from what I heard posturing and sporting a bit of pride having been offered some chance at celebrity in another country.
Now he sounds like a coward begging for bargains so as not to have to answer for his actions.
If a country refuses to interview him at their own embassy i think they have foregone the right to extradite the person. One should ask why did Sweden refuse to interview him? I know Australian law enforcement officers have travelled to Europe to interview someone with a view to extraditing them. Surely then it wouldn't be too hard to travel from Sweden to UK or do so via video link. Video testimony is widely accepted in many countries.
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