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Physical & Life Sciences A forum for physics, biology, chemistry and other physical sciences.

View Poll Results: Can science study the supernatural (et al)?
Yes 8 34.78%
No 6 26.09%
No, by the definition of 'science'. 11 47.83%
No, by the definition of 'supernatural'. 15 65.22%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 23. You may not vote on this poll

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  #21  
Unread 7th December 2012, 09:31 AM
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I voted: No, by the definition of 'supernatural'.

I look at reality like it is a three-story building.

The first story is the subnatural realm ... Santa Claus, tooth fairy, Hansel & Gretel.

The second story is the natural realm ... pepperoni & anchovy pizza.

The third story is the supernatural realm ... God, angels, Heaven & Hell.

Science is too myopic to be able to study the third floor.
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  #22  
Unread 7th December 2012, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by AV1611VET View Post
I voted: No, by the definition of 'supernatural'.

I look at reality like it is a three-story building.

The first story is the subnatural realm ... Santa Claus, tooth fairy, Hansel & Gretel.

The second story is the natural realm ... pepperoni & anchovy pizza.

The third story is the supernatural realm ... God, angels, Heaven & Hell.

Science is too myopic to be able to study the third floor.
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  #23  
Unread 7th December 2012, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by AV1611VET View Post
I voted: No, by the definition of 'supernatural'.

I look at reality like it is a three-story building.

The first story is the subnatural realm ... Santa Claus, tooth fairy, Hansel & Gretel.

The second story is the natural realm ... pepperoni & anchovy pizza.

The third story is the supernatural realm ... God, angels, Heaven & Hell.

Science is too myopic to be able to study the third floor.
Three exhaustive and exclusive categories into which all things can be put. OK.

What are the differences between subnatural, natural, and supernatural? And, given a particular object, how do you determine which category it's in?

That is, why are angels supernatural instead of natural? What is pizza natural instead of subnatural? Why is Santa Claus subnatural instead of supernatural?
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  #24  
Unread 7th December 2012, 09:40 AM
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Hey Wiccan, I would vote in your poll, but I'm not sure what your definition of "supernatural", but I would say;

If a supernatural phenomena leaves empirical evidence, then science can study it. If it helps. For example:

Studies on intercessory prayer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  #25  
Unread 7th December 2012, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Wiccan_Child View Post
Three exhaustive and exclusive categories into which all things can be put. OK.

What are the differences between subnatural, natural, and supernatural? And, given a particular object, how do you determine which category it's in?

That is, why are angels supernatural instead of natural? What is pizza natural instead of subnatural? Why is Santa Claus subnatural instead of supernatural?
Good questions.

At first, I put Leprechauns as an example of subnatural, but I believe Leprechauns really existed at one time as a manifestation of demons.

The difference between the supernatural, natural and subnatural, is that the supernatural can interface with the natural; the natural cannot interface with the supernatural; and the subnatural simply doesn't exist, except as software.

Why I consider angels supernatural and Santa Claus subnatural gets into the area of my Boolean standards.

Which brings up a good point in itself:

I consider the Bible to be a supernatural manifestation here in the natural world.

The corpus, of course, not the footnotes.
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  #26  
Unread 7th December 2012, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by AV1611VET
And for the record, 100% of the world spoke English at one time -- in my opinion.
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  #27  
Unread 7th December 2012, 09:59 AM
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I voted yes..it is closest to what I believe,we can not now,but in the future,it is highly possible.
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  #28  
Unread 7th December 2012, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Blackwater Babe View Post
.
Yes.

What does that have to do with this thread, though?
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  #29  
Unread 7th December 2012, 12:51 PM
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People claim that the supernatural has physical manifestations, so I voted "yes".

For example, some people believed that Zeus was responsible for throwing lightning bolts to the Earth. We later found that Zeus was not responsible, but rather there were natural processes. So not only can science assess supernatural claims, it can test them and falsify them.
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Unread 10th December 2012, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Wiccan_Child View Post
I've used the example of ghosts in my responses, (if ghosts existed, it seems you must accept them as natural, not supernatural entities); in case it came across as such, it's not meant to be an objection to the position.


There seem to be competing definitions at work, depending on who you talk to:

Ghosts and spirits are clear examples of the supernatural. But if they exist, scientific methodology could test them. Thus, the supernatural can be tested by science. The wrinkle is that by allowing the supernatural to be tested by science, that opens the door to an spiracle test for prayer and God, which upsets some people - they prefer that God remain untested, for fear he should fail...
Nope, #1, Free Will, God ain't breakin' it, #2 Science can only observe material and prove that Immaterial Exists, but it cannot observe it Except by Experience just like you cannot observe someones pain scientifically.

you cannot scientifically test the feelings of a sexual orgasm, yet it exists, same with ghosts.

Originally Posted by Wiccan_Child View Post
The supernatural is defined as that which is not natural, and that which is natural is that which can be scrutinised by science. Thus, by definition, the supernatural falls outside scientific purview. The wrinkle is that we have to then consider both ghosts and God to be 'natural', which is upsetting to some.

So it depends on whether you take a bottom-up or a top-down approach, I think.
Nope, Supernatural means Beyond and Greater than nature. not unnatural or less that natural. Supernatural is beyond nature, for example, Creation is Supernatural, yet when observed it is actually natural, however due to the fact that we never witnessed it, it is a miracluous event.

Another example is Substance Dualism, it is impossible to be strictly material, we are Spirits controlling bodies, now at first this was supernatural to me, however after observing and testing more and more it has become natural to me.



Originally Posted by Wiccan_Child View Post
They might also genuinely exist. In either case, it seems your answer is 'yes', so I'm confused why you voted 'no' .


Well, that begs the question of just what constitutes the natural world. If ghosts (â la Casper) exist, would they be natural or supernatural?
Actually less than natural since they are just like us, with no bodies. however since they can do what man cannot still Supernatural, hard to explain.


Originally Posted by Wiccan_Child View Post
So ghosts are natural?
But in general yes, as we are Ghosts/Spirits with bodies.

Originally Posted by Wiccan_Child View Post
What if it had a manifest appearance in the world, if it could interfere with natural things,
It does, look at yourself, you free will is an Immaterial Property causing material events, something you don't realize everyday.

When you look at someone, you just look at their flesh, not the actual being, when you look closely you realize that they aren't their teeth, their eyeballs, pink flesh(the brain), if Immaterial isn't real then when you communicate with someone you are talking to just flesh, basically just talking to yourself, like talking to the wall.

Originally Posted by Wiccan_Child View Post
Indeed. But you said "If the supernatural adhered to objective rules, than those rules could be described by science" - my point is that, if a particle obeys objective rules but cannot be observed by science, then science can't, in fact, describe those rules. Would such a particle be natural, or supernatural?
How? That's like trying to scientifically describe the love I have for The Father, Jesus Christ, and The Holy Spirit, that's an impossibility as Love is an Immaterial property, Supernatural, is Immaterial. The Only way you can Observe Supernatural is when Supernatural interacts with the nature we see(material) causing a miracle, like The Picture in my Signature, that Supernatural is observable.



Originally Posted by Wiccan_Child View Post
Another question: If God exists, would he be natural or supernatural?
He created nature out of nothing, lesser cannot produce greater, therefore Supernatural.
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