Born gay?

onlybygrace84 · #1 13th August 2012, 06:10 AM

Now hear me out before you brand me as a heretic. Some of you have seen enough posts by me to know my stance on homosexuality and it's destructiveness to the soul. Neither is this thread about advocating or supporting gay rights, nothing of the sort, but....

Is it not possible for someone to be born gay? Before you go yelling at me through the screen and planning cyber warfare against me on CF (lol) I feel like I received that almost supernaturally last night while preparing to argue that no one can be born gay. I came to my conclusion as just posted for this reason.

We are all born with a sin nature are we not? Psalm 51:5, "Indeed, I was guilty when I was born; I was sinful when my mother conceived me." Sin is defined as breaking of God's law, of which we all readily admit that homosexuality is, but then when it comes to "more tame" sins of the flesh like lying, thievery, lust, etc we admit that is possible, but doesn't God view all sin as the same? So being born with the sin nature, thanks to Adam thank you Adam, is it not possible that part of that sin nature would be the tendency towards homosexual sins and lusts? After all, unbelieving homosexuals go to Hell as much as unbelieving liars, etc. We all need the Savior regardless of what sins of the flesh we've committed and we all need deliverance from those deeds.

Now let's keep this civil please, no need to get out of control on this. Again I restate this is not a thread in support of homosexuality anymore than it is in support of other sins of the flesh, Jesus is Lord of all!

Optimax · #2 13th August 2012, 06:19 AM

If a person was born gay, that would mean that God made a mistake.

God does not make mistakes but people do and are led into all manner of deceptions.

onlybygrace84 · #3 13th August 2012, 06:31 AM

But humor me if you will, you didn't address the reason behind the post and that is the sin nature. We all are born with it, and if we are born with it and sin is contrary to God then does that mean that God made a mistake with all of us? Homosexuality is no different than any other sin listed in the Bible and those who are suffering from it are no less or more guilty of offending God than any other sinner who is not homosexual.

So in other words, if as you say, God makes a mistake by creating a homosexual, then does He make a mistake by creating a murderer or thief or any other sinner? Or in your opinion does God just discriminate against homosexuals? I just think that is a rather discriminatory point of view. But I don't know enough about these things to say with any kind of authority one way or the other, it just seems to me that being born with the sin nature would mean someone could be born with homosexual tendencies.

Optimax · #4 13th August 2012, 06:56 AM

Originally Posted by onlybygrace84

But humor me if you will, you didn't address the reason behind the post and that is the sin nature. We all are born with it, and if we are born with it and sin is contrary to God then does that mean that God made a mistake with all of us? Homosexuality is no different than any other sin listed in the Bible and those who are suffering from it are no less or more guilty of offending God than any other sinner who is not homosexual.

So in other words, if as you say, God makes a mistake by creating a homosexual, then does He make a mistake by creating a murderer or thief or any other sinner? Or in your opinion does God just discriminate against homosexuals? I just think that is a rather discriminatory point of view. But I don't know enough about these things to say with any kind of authority one way or the other, it just seems to me that being born with the sin nature would mean someone could be born with homosexual tendencies.

God does not create murderer, thieves, etc.

People chose to do those things.

You or I can also chose to do those things, we chose not to.

A person goes through a process before they murder, steal, commit adultery or any other sin.

That process starts with the thought, such as, "you ought to rob a bank, that would give you the money you deserve".

The person probably does not take the thought the first time. But over a period of time maybe even years the thought along with others come and eventually are taken and eventually carried out.

Then the person steals, kills or in case of a homosexual is convinced not by birth but by taking thoughts that they are "gay".

Biblicist · #5 13th August 2012, 07:09 AM

We do know that sin can certainly pass down to the second and third generation so I wonder if homosexuality could be passed down this way as well.

Now I don't know if this handing down of sin is due to some form of grievous sin being able to modify a gene, is it a spiritual impartation of some sort or merely that family traits/habits/beliefs will allow certain types of sin to remain active for a generation or two?

Even so, even if homosexuality can be passed down in this manner it will still not allow any individual to claim that "God made me this way", much the same as anyone who has inherited other forms of sexual dysfunction from their parents will not be able to claim some immunity from Gods judgement.

Optimax · #6 13th August 2012, 07:23 AM

Scripture says these things about it.

God declares these things about people who lay with their own gender.

If a person was "born gay" then God is unjust is such declarations.

The fact that God did make these declarations show that a person chooses for whatever reason to do them.

Lev 18:22
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination . KJV

Lev 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination : they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
KJV

Rom 1:26-28
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; KJV

onlybygrace84 · #7 13th August 2012, 07:29 AM

It seems to me that most of my thread centers around the topic of when the individual "assumes" (For lack of a better word) the sin nature that we all have.

I believe we are born with it, as inherited from Adam, no different than any other traits or genes you receive from earthly parents, looks, behaviors, etc. Then in that belief, since we have that sin nature from the beginning, then from the beginning a person can have the "tendency" to be gay.

I can understand the other view of not until a person can make a decision and know it's wrong do they become accountable for their sins (which I presume Optimax is advocating), but doesn't that really just agree with how I believe on this subject.

Certainly I don't think God will hold an infant accountable for a sin nature they had but could not discern right from wrong, or anything of the matter. So like lying for example, a child chooses to lie or tell the truth, until they reach the age to be able to make that decision on their own and know that either or has consequences, then so to it is with homosexuality. They may be born with it (being part of the sin nature) and until they decide to act on it, they will not be held accountable for it.

onlybygrace84 · #8 13th August 2012, 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by Optimax

Scripture says these things about it.

God declares these things about people who lay with their own gender.

If a person was "born gay" then God is unjust is such declarations.

The fact that God did make these declarations show that a person chooses for whatever reason to do them.

Lev 18:22
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination . KJV

Lev 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination : they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
KJV

Rom 1:26-28
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; KJV

Yes, I'll give you that, but look at what God says about other sins, transgressions of the 10 commandments:

1) In Exodus 22:20 and Leviticus 20:1-6 God says the person who turns from Him will be cut off from the people, which entails cut off from God's promises and put to death.
2) In Lev 19:4; 26:1, 30 & Deut 4 God says those who make idols for themselves and turn from God will have their lives forfeited (26:30)
3) In Lev 24:10-23 a man was stoned for using the Lord's Name in vain, or blasphemy.
4) In Ex 31:15 God says a man who dishonors the Sabbath must die.
5) In Ex 21: 15, 17 those who dishonor their parents or attacks them must die and Deut 27:16 declares those who dishonor their parents are cursed.
6) In Ex 21:12 God says those who take life, forfeit their life.
7) In Lev 18 God says those who commit adultery are to be cut off from the people and in Lev 20 they should then be put to death.
8) In Ex 22 God says those who steal must restore what they stole times a certain amount and if it can't be repaid then they must become slaves of the one they stole from.
9) In Deut 19:15-21 a liar must be punished in the way they intended to bring to others, "Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot."
10) Coveting leads to disobedience and disobedience leads to death (see above answers)

So I understand your view, but the fact is that all sins end in death and severe punishment. All sin is equal in the eyes of God, while I don't know a specific verse that says that verbatim, I do know the Bible declares that God does not show favoritism and that liars will go to hell all the same as murderers, idolaters, homosexuals, etc.... Lying is by most people's standards a very tame sin.

Optimax · #9 13th August 2012, 07:43 AM

Originally Posted by onlybygrace84

Yes, I'll give you that, but look at what God says about other sins, transgressions of the 10 commandments:

1) In Exodus 22:20 and Leviticus 20:1-6 God says the person who turns from Him will be cut off from the people, which entails cut off from God's promises and put to death.
2) In Lev 19:4; 26:1, 30 & Deut 4 God says those who make idols for themselves and turn from God will have their lives forfeited (26:30)
3) In Lev 24:10-23 a man was stoned for using the Lord's Name in vain, or blasphemy.
4) In Ex 31:15 God says a man who dishonors the Sabbath must die.
5) In Ex 21: 15, 17 those who dishonor their parents or attacks them must die and Deut 27:16 declares those who dishonor their parents are cursed.
6) In Ex 21:12 God says those who take life, forfeit their life.
7) In Lev 18 God says those who commit adultery are to be cut off from the people and in Lev 20 they should then be put to death.
8) In Ex 22 God says those who steal must restore what they stole times a certain amount and if it can't be repaid then they must become slaves of the one they stole from.
9) In Deut 19:15-21 a liar must be punished in the way they intended to bring to others, "Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot."
10) Coveting leads to disobedience and disobedience leads to death (see above answers)

So I understand your view, but the fact is that all sins end in death and severe punishment. All sin is equal in the eyes of God, while I don't know a specific verse that says that verbatim, I do know the Bible declares that God does not show favoritism and that liars will go to hell all the same as murderers, idolaters, homosexuals, etc.... Lying is by most people's standards a very tame sin.

All you said is true.

The OP, unless I misunderstood,was if people are born gay.

Notice all those things above are "if a person does those things" which again show choice.

From what I see in scripture a person chooses a gay lifestyle, they are not born gay.

JimB · #10 13th August 2012, 07:47 AM

Good post.

Okay, despite popular wisdom …

Twin boys used to live across the street from me. I knew them from the time they were a year-old until they were in their teens. One was all-boy from a toddler. He loved sports, guns, wrestling, hanging with the guys … all the things that boys like.

The other was different. From the earliest age he loved dolls, makeup, pink stuff, tea parties, being with girls. We all knew that he was atypical but as they grew it became more pronounced. His mother tried making a boy out of him but he would have none of it. He simply liked girly things. And it never changed. Today, I am a FB friend with both of the boys. The former is a man’s man, and the other is gay. And they are twins. They did not choose their orientation. They were, apparently, born that way.

Furthermore, I do not think anyone in this forum has enough education, either in psychology or theology, to speak as an authority or even to make a qualified judgment on human behavior. Things are what they are and our duty is love everyone God loves. Period. And he loves the whole world (John 3.16)—without exception, the good, the bad, and the ugly. Even gays.