Circumcision~Paul/Timothy

Lulav · #31 24th July 2012, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by pat34lee

Timothy's mother was Jewish, making him a Jew by the laws of the time. I don't think it mentions Titus' parents, but since Paul refused to circumcise him, he was probably fully gentile.

Yes, it is mentioned that Timothy's Mother was Jewish, therefore he was Jewish and should have been circumcised, back then and even now. He probably wasn't because his father, being a Greek would not have wanted it, as the Greeks were very body conscious and did a lot of things naked.

Many Jewish men at the time who wanted to be 'hip' and acceptable to the rest of the Hellenized world would have a 'skin' actually sewn on so they could participate in the games and in the baths and look like the Greeks and not be ridiculed.

I don't see any reason for Titus to be circumcised except that Paul used this as an example. If we have no information on his background it is useless to postulate if he should or shouldn't have been circumcised being a Jew.

Qnts2 · #32 25th July 2012, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by Lulav

Actually there is a precedent found in Exodus 4, it seems that the L-RD was going to kill Moses for the violation of the covenant when his wife realized why and took matters into her own hands and circumcised one of the boys. It is odd that it says she only circumcised one of them for surely the other must have been more than eight days old. But this part does hold a clue as to what was involved in circumcision, by this remark:

It must have been large enough to be able to throw at Moses' feet so an incision only large enough to draw blood doesn't seem to be the case here. Also with the men that raped Dinah, it took them three days to recover so again, something more than what is used in conversion ceremonies today on grown men.

Also the word circumcise also indicates that it is a circular cut, going all the way around an object. That of course is an English word, but it's etymology refers to what I said. The Hebrew is mowl, and besides meaning 'to circumcise' it also means to be cut off.

Circum is from the Latin, which is a prefix attached meaning 'round' or 'around'. Circumnavigate would mean to either sail or fly around the world. We see this in mathematics, with circumfernece, which is the outer perimeter of a circular object.

Here is an example of a circular thing being cut all the way around.

Arrows have a round smooth shaft, to cut an arrow in pieces one must cut all the way around them.

Circum=around cidere =cut off

Just for information for Judaism practices.

A man who is converting, who is already circumcised, only a small drop of blood is needed to confirm the covenant. A man who is converting who is not circumcised, the full circumcision is required (not just a pinprick to draw blood).

mercy1061 · #33 25th July 2012, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by MrJim

Greetings!

I have a question about circumcision in regards to this passage:

~~(Acts 16:3 NASB)

My question is this: Was there some kind of "inspection" to check for circumcision in men? It sounds like a dumb thing to ask maybe but whenever I happen across this passage it comes up and I wonder about it.

I picked up the German/Circumcision thread in the "New Posts" area and the thought happened again.

Thanks

"Circumcision on the 8th day".....

Paul made this clear in his letter to the phillipians....

Phil 3:5
I was circumcised when I was eight days old. I am a pure-blooded citizen of Israel and a member of the tribe of Benjamin--a real Hebrew if there ever was one! I was a member of the Pharisees, who demand the strictest obedience to the Jewish law.

It is his "strictest obedience" to the jewish law that set Paul apart from those who mistakenly "presume" to perfectly follow the law of Moses (concerning fleshly circumcision) passed down from Abraham.

Paul is a "pure-blooded" citizen of Israel; born from the tribe of Benjamin. Male "Circumcisised on the 8th day" may reveal his true identity. Isaac and Paul were circumcised on the 8th day.......

mercy1061 · #34 25th July 2012, 08:47 PM

Originally Posted by pat34lee

Timothy's mother was Jewish, making him a Jew by the laws of the time. I don't think it mentions Titus' parents, but since Paul refused to circumcise him, he was probably fully gentile.

Perhaps if a male was "circumcised on the 8th day", he could not glory in his circumcision......

In fact, a male baby 8 days old can not perform his own circumcision, but must depend on the skill of his father or priest (most biblical cases). Some may argue that Moses' son was circumcised by his mother. In either case the little male child inherits his "righteousness on the 8th day" from his father.....

Gal 6
12 Those who want to impress people by means of the flesh are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13 Not even those who are circumcised keep the law, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast about your circumcision in the flesh. 14 May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

Yeshua (Luke 2:21) and Paul (Phil 3:5) were circumcised on the 8th day. Now if the galatians need be compelled to become circumcised like Titus, they must not follow the command given to Abraham "fleshly circumcision on the 8th day".....

"Male circumcision on the 8th day" is how you keep the law (concerning fleshly circumcision) perfectly....

Simply preaching "fleshly circumcision" is not preaching the whole law perfectly...

This is why Paul had to warn the galatian church that the pharisees (who knew the law perfectly) had "impure" or deceptive motives (Acts 15:5, Gen 34:30-31).

Those pharisees were only interested in circumcising those "adult" galatians not their children....

Acts 15
5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

I think we should be careful to denote that the law concerning fleshly "circumcision on the 8th day" did not begin with Moses but it was performed by the hand of Abraham upon Isaac.....

It is yet uncertain if Moses was actually circumcised on the 8th day; his mother hid him for 3 months then placed him in a basket "among the reeds" of the Nile River when he was very young.....

yedida · #35 25th July 2012, 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by mercy1061

Perhaps if a male was "circumcised on the 8th day", he could not glory in his circumcision......

In fact, a male baby 8 days old can not perform his own circumcision, but must depend on the skill of his father or priest (most biblical cases). Some may argue that Moses' son was circumcised by his mother. In either case the little male child inherits his "righteousness on the 8th day" from his father.....

Gal 6
12 Those who want to impress people by means of the flesh are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13 Not even those who are circumcised keep the law, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast about your circumcision in the flesh. 14 May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

Yeshua (Luke 2:21) and Paul (Phil 3:5) were circumcised on the 8th day. Now if the galatians need be compelled to become circumcised like Titus, they must not follow the command given to Abraham "fleshly circumcision on the 8th day".....

"Male circumcision on the 8th day" is how you keep the law (concerning fleshly circumcision) perfectly....

Simply preaching "fleshly circumcision" is not preaching the whole law perfectly...

This is why Paul had to warn the galatian church that the pharisees (who knew the law perfectly) had "impure" or deceptive motives (Acts 15:5, Gen 34:30-31).

Those pharisees were only interested in circumcising those "adult" galatians not their children....

Acts 15
5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

I think we should be careful to denote that the law concerning fleshly "circumcision on the 8th day" did not begin with Moses but it was performed by the hand of Abraham upon Isaac.....

It is yet uncertain if Moses was actually circumcised on the 8th day; his mother hid him for 3 months then placed him in a basket "among the reeds" of the Nile River when he was very young.....

anisavta · #36 26th July 2012, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by mercy1061

Perhaps if a male was "circumcised on the 8th day", he could not glory in his circumcision......

In fact, a male baby 8 days old can not perform his own circumcision, but must depend on the skill of his father or priest (most biblical cases). Some may argue that Moses' son was circumcised by his mother. In either case the little male child inherits his "righteousness on the 8th day" from his father.....

Gal 6
12 Those who want to impress people by means of the flesh are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13 Not even those who are circumcised keep the law, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast about your circumcision in the flesh. 14 May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

Yeshua (Luke 2:21) and Paul (Phil 3:5) were circumcised on the 8th day. Now if the galatians need be compelled to become circumcised like Titus, they must not follow the command given to Abraham "fleshly circumcision on the 8th day".....

"Male circumcision on the 8th day" is how you keep the law (concerning fleshly circumcision) perfectly....

Simply preaching "fleshly circumcision" is not preaching the whole law perfectly...

This is why Paul had to warn the galatian church that the pharisees (who knew the law perfectly) had "impure" or deceptive motives (Acts 15:5, Gen 34:30-31).

Those pharisees were only interested in circumcising those "adult" galatians not their children....

Acts 15
5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

I think we should be careful to denote that the law concerning fleshly "circumcision on the 8th day" did not begin with Moses but it was performed by the hand of Abraham upon Isaac.....

It is yet uncertain if Moses was actually circumcised on the 8th day; his mother hid him for 3 months then placed him in a basket "among the reeds" of the Nile River when he was very young.....

What's your point? Cut to the chase.

mercy1061 · #37 1st August 2012, 06:21 PM

Maybe we should study the pharisees motives for giving this instruction to the gentiles? Paul was a pharisee; could it be possible he understood their "shrewd" thinking?

How do the pharisees benefit for telling the gentiles to follow Moses?

Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” Acts 15:1

But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. Acts 15:5

How did Moses teach "circumcision on the 8th day"?

Moses did not become famous because he was a "perfect" example to follow concerning the law of circumcision. In fact, Moses doesn't even circumcise his own son! This situation fits well with the pharisees "concern" for the gentiles putting away their foreskins. The pharisees keenly attribute the "law of circumcision" to Moses, when Abraham circumcised Isaac on the 8th day......

Abraham did not cirucmcise Ishmael or himself on the 8th day.....

So should not the "law of circumcision on the 8th day" be called Abraham's custom?

Moses is well known for leading the children of Israel towards the promise land....

Moses is well known for "strengthening" Israel and drowning Israel's oppressor in the Red Sea.....

Moses is well known for causing plagues and extreme calamity to fall upon Egypt, to "weaken" Israel's oppressor.....

Moses is remembered for causing manna to fall from heaven to feed Israel so that she would not perish in the wilderness....

Again, Moses helps Israel, Moses does not teach gentiles to become circumcised on the 8th day....

Circumcision "when performed at adulthood" is known for causing the male body to weaken (Gen 34:30-31)......

yedida · #38 1st August 2012, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by mercy1061

Maybe we should study the pharisees motives for giving this instruction to the gentiles? Paul was a pharisee; could it be possible he understood their "shrewd" thinking?

How do the pharisees benefit for telling the gentiles to follow Moses?

Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” Acts 15:1

But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. Acts 15:5

How did Moses teach "circumcision on the 8th day"?

Moses did not become famous because he was a "perfect" example to follow concerning the law of circumcision. In fact, Moses doesn't even circumcise his own son! This situation fits well with the pharisees "concern" for the gentiles putting away their foreskins. The pharisees keenly attribute the "law of circumcision" to Moses, when Abraham circumcised Isaac on the 8th day......

Abraham did not cirucmcise Ishmael or himself on the 8th day.....

So should not the "law of circumcision on the 8th day" be called Abraham's custom?

Moses is well known for leading the children of Israel towards the promise land....

Moses is well known for "strengthening" Israel and drowning Israel's oppressor in the Red Sea.....

Moses is well known for causing plagues and extreme calamity to fall upon Egypt, to "weaken" Israel's oppressor.....

Moses is remembered for causing manna to fall from heaven to feed Israel so that she would not perish in the wilderness....

Again, Moses helps Israel, Moses does not teach gentiles to become circumcised on the 8th day....

Circumcision "when performed at adulthood" is known for causing the male body to weaken (Gen 34:30-31)......

I'm with Ani, even after this, I still don't know what you're point is. What are you trying to say?

Lulav · #39 2nd August 2012, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by mercy1061

It is yet uncertain if Moses was actually circumcised on the 8th day; his mother hid him for 3 months then placed him in a basket "among the reeds" of the Nile River when he was very young.....

Let's see, 3 months = approximately 90 days.

I'm sure that he was circumcised as how else would the Egyptian princess be able to proclaim that 'he' was a child of the Hebrews?

While Egyptians practiced circumcision, as is testified to by tomb artwork dating back almost 4,000 years, they were circumcised as adults or once they reached puberty.

Since Moses was only 3 months old when set on the Nile, his obvious circumcision as that age would be a telltale sign he was of the Hebrews.

mercy1061 · #40 2nd August 2012, 07:34 PM

Let's see, 3 months = approximately 90 days.

Amen.

I'm sure that he was circumcised as how else would the Egyptian princess be able to proclaim that 'he' was a child of the Hebrews?

Amen. Moses was probably circumcised by his mother. This would not agree with tradition established by Abraham; father circumcising his son on the 8th day. Moses son is circumcised by his mother Zipporah; more evidence that "appear" to support Moses being circumcised by his mother. However, Zipporah not only cirucmcised Moses son, but she cast the "blood" or foreskin at Moses feet. The law only condemns a man if he is not circumcised; the law does not condemn a man for refusing to circumcise his son.

While Egyptians practiced circumcision, as is testified to by tomb artwork dating back almost 4,000 years, they were circumcised as adults or once they reached puberty.

Amen. Moses could have been circumcised by his mother or the Egyptians. In either case, Moses does not keep the "law of circumcision" performed on the 8th day established by Abraham in Isaac......

Isaac was circumcised on the 8th day, Isaac is Paul's father......

Romans 9

7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac.

Gal 4:28

Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise.

Since Moses was only 3 months old when set on the Nile, his obvious circumcision as that age would be a telltale sign he was of the Hebrews.

While Moses could have been circumcised by his mother; this does not explain why Zipporah cast the "blood" from Moses' son circumcision at Moses feet to protect him. This would explain why Moses is not allowed to enter the promise land.....

Joshua and Caleb took possession of the promise land.....

Joshua circumcised Israel with knives.....

Joshua 5
3 So Joshua made flint knives and circumcised the Israelites at Gibeath Haaraloth.