A little clarity please

food4thought · #1 14th July 2012, 05:41 PM

Hello everyone.

I think my view could be called loosely dispensationalist, but some of the things I read here leave me a bit confused. Could someone lay out for me each of the dispensations and a brief explanation of each? Also, there seems to be some discussion here about two gospels in the NT... could someone please give me a brief overview of what they are speaking about. Even a link or two that gives me a brief overview of these ideas would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance, and sorry I didn't take the time to dig very far into previous threads to find the answer. God bless;

Mike

Biblewriter · #2 15th July 2012, 05:39 PM

The basic concept of Dispensationalism is simply that God deals with mankind in different ways at different times.

We know, for instance, that Adam and his wife Eve were created in innocence. They did not have the knowledge of good and evil. When they sinned, this changed.

So we call this the dispensation of innocence. This ended with mankind cast out of the garden, with a flaming sword that turned every way to keep them out.

After this, God sort of left mankind to itself. There were no rules or laws of any kind.

We call this the dispensation of conscience. This ended with the earth being filled with violence and corruption, resulting in Noah's flood.

After this, God set up human government, commanding mankind to execute every murderer.

We call this the dispensation of government. This resulted in mankind uniting in rebellion against God, attempting to build a tower to reach to heaven. This ended with the confusion of languages.

Then God Called out a single man and gave him a promise of future blessing.

We call this the dispensation of promise. This ended with the heirs of the promise reduced to abject slavery in Egypt.

Then God delivered the nation and gave them a law.

We call this the dispensation of law. This ended with the only man who ever kept it hanging on a cross.

Now God offers free grace to anyone who simply believes.

We call this the dispensation of grace. But God has told us that this will end in apostasy. God will remove all true believers and turn the false professors over to the lie of the Antichrist.

Then God will set up an earthly kingdom which will last a thousand years. We call this the millennium.

After the thousand years, Mankind will again rebel and the earth will be destroyed, along with the heavens. Then God will meak New Heavens and a New Earth.

We call this the eternal state.

susanbb · #3 17th July 2012, 06:43 PM

Gospel of the Kingdom:
Fulfilment of the promise to restore Israel above all nations
Offered to those in Israel who believed Jesus was the Messiah
Requirements: Repent of unbelief, water baptism, identification with Jesus as King of Israel (Faith plus works)

Believers must either be martyrd or endure to the Second Coming of Christ to receive forgiveness of sin (spiritual redemption). Jesus healed believers providing immediate physical redemption.

This dispensation was interrupted by the dispensation of grace but will conclude after the rapture.

Gospel of Christ:
All have sinned
The wages of sin is death
Jesus paid for our death with his death on the cross
He was ressurrected as proof all our sins were forgiven
Requirements: Believe Jesus died for the forgiveness of your sin (faith alone).

At the moment a person puts their complete trust in Christ's work on the cross, he is placed by the Spirit into the body of Christ. (Immediate spiritual redemption). Our bodies will be redeemed at the rapture (physical redemption).

notreligus · #4 20th July 2012, 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by food4thought

Hello everyone.

I think my view could be called loosely dispensationalist, but some of the things I read here leave me a bit confused. Could someone lay out for me each of the dispensations and a brief explanation of each? Also, there seems to be some discussion here about two gospels in the NT... could someone please give me a brief overview of what they are speaking about. Even a link or two that gives me a brief overview of these ideas would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance, and sorry I didn't take the time to dig very far into previous threads to find the answer. God bless;

Mike

Many folk have the idea that dispensationalism is dispenationalism, or that those ideas presented in the Scofield Bible are the basis for dispensationalism. And it is said that Scofield got his ideas from john Darby, of the Plymouth Brethren. I'll provide here the basic dispensations that Scofield outlined:

1. Creation to the Fall - Age of Innocency
2. Fall to the Flood - Age of Conscience
3. Flood to Abraham - Age of Human Government
4. Abraham to Moses - Age of Promise
5. Moses to Christ - Age of Law
6. Church Age - Age of Grace
7. The Millennium - Age of the Kingdom of Christ

This is from the Darby/Scofield school of thought. Then you have the Chafer/Bullinger/Stam school of thought that Israel and the Church are sooo different and sooo separate that Israel alone will be on the Earth during the Millennium and the Church will be in Heaven. The teaching is that all of the promises made to Israel in the OT, will still come to pass in the future. These are earthly promises for an earlthy people. The Church are a heavenly people and will receive heavenly blessings, and thus the home of the church is Heaven and Heaven alone. The idea that Christ has fulfilled many of these prophecies is foreign to these folk and rejected.

John Hagee is not alone in this as you'll find many Messianics promoting this, but the idea that folk like Hagee glean from reading Romans Chapters 9 through 11 is that God has not stopped dealing with Israel altogether, but has temporarily turned to the Gentiles to deal with them. Christ did not set up a kingdom the first time He came to Earth (they reject the notion of Christ reigning over a spiritual kingdom now, and they also reject what the Book of Hebrews teaches about Christ now being our Great High Priest right now). This time, or this age of grace, the church age, is parenthetical. This is the mystery, or this is God's secret that He kept hidden before the Apostle Paul came on the scene to reveal the mystery and the true gospel of Christ. Paul is the first member of the Body of Christ. Because God has not rejected the Jews, and because Christ did not set up His kingdom during His first time on earth, then Jews/Israel who follow the Torah are considered to still be believers. Thus Jews can still be saved under the Law covenant and Gentiles may be saved under the Grace covenant.

If this all sounds nuts, that's because it is.

Chafer founded the Dallas Theological Seminary, but you'll find that his hyper-dispensationalism or, Mid-Acts dispensationalism, is not the norm of what is taught there today. It is called Mid-Acts because it is said that is when the Church/Body began, or when Paul's ministry was in full force and Gentiles began to believe the Gospel.

Dispensationals will quickly shout "heresy" and call you an anti-Semitic if you reject dispensationalism, especially if you reject anything that they believe about Israel. The fact is that there is nothing to preclude a conversion of Israelites/Jews during the great apostacy that will be rampant on the Earth. Christ will return and set up His kingdom, but he will not divide His people, the Body of Christ. He came to call one people unto Himself. It that is not true then what Paul taught that Christ accomplished on the cross is a lie. And that means we can take the Book of Hebrews and rip if from our Bibles. The Mid-Acts people, or the MAD people, will have you believe that any book after Philemon was written exclusively to the Hebrews. Now, you can believe that if you reject the Gospel, or you can believe that Christ died for all of mankind and reject this crazy teaching.

This is a very complicated topic. But don't let anyone fool you. Dispensationalism is a entire belief system. It is not just a way of viewing eschatology. Mid-Acts dispensationals are, as a group, strong cessationists. They mock you if you talk about the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and if you say anything about Israel that they don't like, you'll be called heretic and on your way to Hell. I've experienced this, and had I not experienced it I would not be saying these things.

Biblewriter · #5 20th July 2012, 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by notreligus

Many folk have the idea that dispensationalism is dispenationalism, or that those ideas presented in the Scofield Bible are the basis for dispensationalism. And it is said that Scofield got his ideas from john Darby, of the Plymouth Brethren. I'll provide here the basic dispensations that Scofield outlined:

1. Creation to the Fall - Age of Innocency
2. Fall to the Flood - Age of Conscience
3. Flood to Abraham - Age of Human Government
4. Abraham to Moses - Age of Promise
5. Moses to Christ - Age of Law
6. Church Age - Age of Grace
7. The Millennium - Age of the Kingdom of Christ

This is from the Darby/Scofield school of thought. Then you have the Chafer/Bullinger/Stam school of thought that Israel and the Church are sooo different and sooo separate that Israel alone will be on the Earth during the Millennium and the Church will be in Heaven. The teaching is that all of the promises made to Israel in the OT, will still come to pass in the future. These are earthly promises for an earlthy people. The Church are a heavenly people and will receive heavenly blessings, and thus the home of the church is Heaven and Heaven alone. The idea that Christ has fulfilled many of these prophecies is foreign to these folk and rejected.

John Hagee is not alone in this as you'll find many Messianics promoting this, but the idea that folk like Hagee glean from reading Romans Chapters 9 through 11 is that God has not stopped dealing with Israel altogether, but has temporarily turned to the Gentiles to deal with them. Christ did not set up a kingdom the first time He came to Earth (they reject the notion of Christ reigning over a spiritual kingdom now, and they also reject what the Book of Hebrews teaches about Christ now being our Great High Priest right now). This time, or this age of grace, the church age, is parenthetical. This is the mystery, or this is God's secret that He kept hidden before the Apostle Paul came on the scene to reveal the mystery and the true gospel of Christ. Paul is the first member of the Body of Christ. Because God has not rejected the Jews, and because Christ did not set up His kingdom during His first time on earth, then Jews/Israel who follow the Torah are considered to still be believers. Thus Jews can still be saved under the Law covenant and Gentiles may be saved under the Grace covenant.

If this all sounds nuts, that's because it is.

Chafer founded the Dallas Theological Seminary, but you'll find that his hyper-dispensationalism or, Mid-Acts dispensationalism, is not the norm of what is taught there today. It is called Mid-Acts because it is said that is when the Church/Body began, or when Paul's ministry was in full force and Gentiles began to believe the Gospel.

Dispensationals will quickly shout "heresy" and call you an anti-Semitic if you reject dispensationalism, especially if you reject anything that they believe about Israel. The fact is that there is nothing to preclude a conversion of Israelites/Jews during the great apostacy that will be rampant on the Earth. Christ will return and set up His kingdom, but he will not divide His people, the Body of Christ. He came to call one people unto Himself. It that is not true then what Paul taught that Christ accomplished on the cross is a lie. And that means we can take the Book of Hebrews and rip if from our Bibles. The Mid-Acts people, or the MAD people, will have you believe that any book after Philemon was written exclusively to the Hebrews. Now, you can believe that if you reject the Gospel, or you can believe that Christ died for all of mankind and reject this crazy teaching.

This is a very complicated topic. But don't let anyone fool you. Dispensationalism is a entire belief system. It is not just a way of viewing eschatology. Mid-Acts dispensationals are, as a group, strong cessationists. They mock you if you talk about the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and if you say anything about Israel that they don't like, you'll be called heretic and on your way to Hell. I've experienced this, and had I not experienced it I would not be saying these things.

I am sorry about how you have been treated. But the scriptures indeed very explicitly say that the nation of Israel will again be blessed in their ancient homeland. And they say this in too many places to count.

And the scriptures indeed say that the church will be blessed in heaven.

food4thought · #6 21st July 2012, 07:16 AM

Thank you everyone for your posts... I guess I fall into the dispensationalist category as I thought. I agree with the divisions listed by biblewriter in post #2, and can see the logic of the gospel of the kingdom vs the gospel of grace.

I have always been taught that the church began in Acts 2 with the descent of the Holy Spirit on the disciples... but I think the church began when Jesus "breathed" the Holy Spirit into the remaining Apostles (John 20:22). Either way, the church is distinct from Israel, and God will again deal with Israel as a nation during the tribulation... as for the millenium, I see that as a time where Israel will be the head of the nations; yet it is those who are of the church, along with the OT saints, who will rule and reign with Christ as judges (we will know God's Spirit so well that our judgements will be His), ambassadors, and teachers.

Thank you all for heling me clarify these things somewhat... I really don't trust wikipedia much on learning about religious doctrine, and the various books available might only express one strain of dispensationalism, not the broad general characteristics. God bless;

Mike

notreligus · #7 21st July 2012, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by Biblewriter

I am sorry about how you have been treated. But the scriptures indeed very explicitly say that the nation of Israel will again be blessed in their ancient homeland. And they say this in too many places to count.

And the scriptures indeed say that the church will be blessed in heaven.

I am not here crying about how I have been treated. I am not a child, so don't be condescending. You are trying to create a straw man and detour the discussion.

Do you acknowledge that Christ's work on the cross was finished?

Are you aware that when the Scriptures tell us that He fulfilled the Law that He actually did? Everything was according to the Law, including His crucifixion.

Do you acknowledge that He is the Great High Priest over the Body of Christ right now?

Do you believe that a new man in Christ was created, including the Israelite remnant and the Gentiles? Do you acknowledge that when Paul said that God had not cast off Israel that the fact that there was a believing remnant which proved that God has not cast them off?

Do you seriously believe that this age is parenthetical, that a sovereign God sent His Son to die in the place of all of mankind who are not deserving of salvation, just because the Jews, on the whole, rejected Him? The Jews had rejected God before Christ came. Have you not read that Christ told the Jews that they had turned His Father's House, central to their worship, into a den of thieves?

Do you acknowledge original sin and how that places a curse upon mankind that only Christ's perfect sacrfice would suffice as payment?

These things are much more important than when the Church is raptured. These are the foundational teachings that we all must believe and agree upon. These are not manufactured scenarios, which use non-canonical books like Enoch to fill in the blanks.

Do you have any idea how many different teachings that contemporary Jews have concerning the Millennium? They range from no Millennium and upon death a person becomes non-existent to a Millennium thousands of years long. Dispensationals claim to use the same Scriptures that Jews use, yet Torah-following Jews have many different ideas about the Millennium that are not in agreemement with Darby, Scofied or Stam.

notreligus · #8 21st July 2012, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by food4thought

Thank you everyone for your posts... I guess I fall into the dispensationalist category as I thought. I agree with the divisions listed by biblewriter in post #2, and can see the logic of the gospel of the kingdom vs the gospel of grace.

I have always been taught that the church began in Acts 2 with the descent of the Holy Spirit on the disciples... but I think the church began when Jesus "breathed" the Holy Spirit into the remaining Apostles (John 20:22). Either way, the church is distinct from Israel, and God will again deal with Israel as a nation during the tribulation... as for the millenium, I see that as a time where Israel will be the head of the nations; yet it is those who are of the church, along with the OT saints, who will rule and reign with Christ as judges (we will know God's Spirit so well that our judgements will be His), ambassadors, and teachers.

Thank you all for heling me clarify these things somewhat... I really don't trust wikipedia much on learning about religious doctrine, and the various books available might only express one strain of dispensationalism, not the broad general characteristics. God bless;

Mike

No, the Church is the Body of Christ and the Body is comprised of the believing remnant and Gentiles who have come into the Body. That effectively eliminated Israelites and Gentiles as in the eyes of God, they are all one in Christ. An Israelite has no superior position. If that is true, then the Bible is not true and we believe in Christ in vain and do not believe all that He accomplished on the cross. This is what is central to the New Covenant, which is in place, contrary to the false teaching of some dispensationals.

Dispensationalism is easy to accept. It seems to explain end-times and most people find that an understanding of end-times is so daunting so they get into dispensationalism because it seems to offer a plausible explanation. Those who put in most of their study time on end-times get stuck in this ditch. They would be better off spending their time learning Who Christ is, What He did, and Why He did it, rather than focusing on a belief system which ignores some of the central teachings of the Christian faith in order to explain when the rapture will occurr. We need not worry about that. God's wrath is not for His people. We didn't have to invent a new belief system understand that.

Biblewriter · #9 21st July 2012, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by notreligus

No, the Church is the Body of Christ and the Body is comprised of the believing remnant and Gentiles who have come into the Body. That effectively eliminated Israelites and Gentiles as in the eyes of God, they are all one in Christ. An Israelite has no superior position. If that is true, then the Bible is not true and we believe in Christ in vain and do not believe all that He accomplished on the cross. This is what is central to the New Covenant, which is in place, contrary to the false teaching of some dispensationals.

Dispensationalism is easy to accept. It seems to explain end-times and most people find that an understanding of end-times is so daunting so they get into dispensationalism because it seems to offer a plausible explanation. Those who put in most of their study time on end-times get stuck in this ditch. They would be better off spending their time learning Who Christ is, What He did, and Why He did it, rather than focusing on a belief system which ignores some of the central teachings of the Christian faith in order to explain when the rapture will occurr. We need not worry about that. God's wrath is not for His people. We didn't have to invent a new belief system understand that.

Actually, some of the central concepts of Dispensationalism can be found in the very oldest Christian writings we have, particularly the concept that Daniel's seventieth week remains to be fulfilled in the future.

James4_14 · #10 22nd July 2012, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by Biblewriter
I am sorry about how you have been treated. But the scriptures indeed very explicitly say that the nation of Israel will again be blessed in their ancient homeland. And they say this in too many places to count.

And the scriptures indeed say that the church will be blessed in heaven.

Yep. Two different callings/churches.