Question from non-Christian to hard core "God chooses some but not all" Calvinists

brettw777 · #1 10th July 2012, 09:39 AM

I am a former Christian. I know none of you actually believe that so I guess that makes me a liar but here are a couple of questions to Calvinists:

Since I reject the Bible, the shed blood of Jesus and the Biblical God wholeheartedly, that means I am on my way to the lake of burning fire right? I mean it is not like I have not heard it and don't believe it yet. I have heard it, did believe it, made it such an integral part of my life for 17 years and now reject it. Now, here it comes. If you believe that God did not call me and save me and I wind up in the lake of fire, whose fault is that - mine or God's? Now, if you say that it is God's fault, that puts you in the awkward position of finding fault with God and I know that none of you are going to do that. Therefore, it puts you in the position of agreeing with RC Sproul in his book "Chosen by God" (which I read) that man is born deserving of Hell because he was born with a sin nature. If you agree with that, again, whose fault is that - mine or Adam and Eve's? If you really believe Paul (a man who loved his own opinion) that we were born with this sin nature and thus doom ourselves to Hell, why would you blame the non-believer for not being a believer if God, by his own selection process did not choose me? After all, did I ask to be born? Let me put it to you another way? Let's say somebody told you that they have a special lottery ticket for you. It has "yes" once and "no" 9 times. You get the choice to scratch off one of the spaces. If you get the "yes," you get eternal life in Heaven. If you get one of the 9 spaces that have "no," you go to hell for all eternity. Do you scratch or avoid this lottery altogether? That is assuming that 10% of the entire human race ever makes it or gets chosen. I think we both know that you are going to avoid this lottery because the odds against you are pretty bad. So, to sum up, why would you believe that:

God chooses some but not all. For those he does not, it is their fault for sinning even though...they sinned because they could not help it thanks to a sin nature which they could have easily avoided by at least getting the choice to be born or not.

Isn't that like an 8 foot man marrying a 7 foot woman and then blaming their soon for being tall? Wasn't he born with "tall" genes? Was it his fault for being tall? Did he ask to be born? If you knew that you had a 90% chance of losing any high risk game, would you choose to play that game? I would hope you agree that at least 90% of all humans do not profess a saving faith in Jesus.

BrotherBob · #2 10th July 2012, 12:48 PM

Read Romans for the condition of man. But since you reject the Bible
as being authoritative, it becomes a futile endeavor. Since you reject
God, the atonement and the Bible, it appears you have made your
choice. Your condition is apply addressed in Hebrews 6:4-6:

(4) For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and
tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the
Holy Spirit,
(5) and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the
age to come,
(6) and then fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again
to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son
of God, and put Him to open shame.

But again, since you reject the word, any discussion becomes useless.

brettw777 · #3 11th July 2012, 06:49 AM

Bob, my question was for real Calvinists, not someone who believes you actually can fall or away or conceivably reject the faith. It is my understanding that a true Calvinist believes it is impossible to reject the drawing of the Holy Spirit. Whose fault is it if I am not chosen? Anyone?

file13 · #4 11th July 2012, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by brettw777

Since I reject the Bible, the shed blood of Jesus and the Biblical God wholeheartedly, that means I am on my way to the lake of burning fire right?

Hi Brett! I think you're misunderstanding God's justice here.

If you go to hell, you will go because of your own sins that you freely and willingly commit. The wages, the cost, the just reward for sin is Gehenna. God is just, and without Christ's blood covering you, you will receive the just reward for your own sins. You will be judged based on your works.

That being said....

Are You a Good Person? - YouTube

Does that make sense? The idea that you go to hell for non-belief is not accurate. Those who are hell bound, are hell bound because they freely choose to sin because they want to sin, and those sins carry with them the just punishment of Gehenna or hell.

file13 · #5 11th July 2012, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by brettw777

Bob, my question was for real Calvinists, not someone who believes you actually can fall or away or conceivably reject the faith. It is my understanding that a true Calvinist believes it is impossible to reject the drawing of the Holy Spirit. Whose fault is it if I am not chosen? Anyone?

The only people who can know their election is God Himself and you. But you're not dead my friend, so it's possible that you were indeed drawn, but have suffered from an extreme lapse in the faith and are now being dragged through the mud for some greater good we're not privy to. We just don't know and asking us to be omniscient here won't help. We don't know what you're status is before God, nor can we.

That being said, what exactly convinced you to leave the church?

brettw777 · #6 13th July 2012, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by file13

The only people who can know their election is God Himself and you. But you're not dead my friend, so it's possible that you were indeed drawn, but have suffered from an extreme lapse in the faith and are now being dragged through the mud for some greater good we're not privy to. We just don't know and asking us to be omniscient here won't help. We don't know what you're status is before God, nor can we.

That being said, what exactly convinced you to leave the church?

Numerous errors found in the Bible not to mention that even if the Bible were free of any errors, God never once told me that the Bible was His word.

Foghorn · #7 23rd July 2012, 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by brettw777

I am a former Christian. I know none of you actually believe that so I guess that makes me a liar but here are a couple of questions to Calvinists:

Since I reject the Bible, the shed blood of Jesus and the Biblical God wholeheartedly, that means I am on my way to the lake of burning fire right? I mean it is not like I have not heard it and don't believe it yet. I have heard it, did believe it, made it such an integral part of my life for 17 years and now reject it. Now, here it comes. If you believe that God did not call me and save me and I wind up in the lake of fire, whose fault is that - mine or God's? Now, if you say that it is God's fault, that puts you in the awkward position of finding fault with God and I know that none of you are going to do that. Therefore, it puts you in the position of agreeing with RC Sproul in his book "Chosen by God" (which I read) that man is born deserving of Hell because he was born with a sin nature. If you agree with that, again, whose fault is that - mine or Adam and Eve's? If you really believe Paul (a man who loved his own opinion) that we were born with this sin nature and thus doom ourselves to Hell, why would you blame the non-believer for not being a believer if God, by his own selection process did not choose me? After all, did I ask to be born? Let me put it to you another way? Let's say somebody told you that they have a special lottery ticket for you. It has "yes" once and "no" 9 times. You get the choice to scratch off one of the spaces. If you get the "yes," you get eternal life in Heaven. If you get one of the 9 spaces that have "no," you go to hell for all eternity. Do you scratch or avoid this lottery altogether? That is assuming that 10% of the entire human race ever makes it or gets chosen. I think we both know that you are going to avoid this lottery because the odds against you are pretty bad. So, to sum up, why would you believe that:

God chooses some but not all. For those he does not, it is their fault for sinning even though...they sinned because they could not help it thanks to a sin nature which they could have easily avoided by at least getting the choice to be born or not.

Isn't that like an 8 foot man marrying a 7 foot woman and then blaming their soon for being tall? Wasn't he born with "tall" genes? Was it his fault for being tall? Did he ask to be born? If you knew that you had a 90% chance of losing any high risk game, would you choose to play that game? I would hope you agree that at least 90% of all humans do not profess a saving faith in Jesus.

Your argument is not with a Calvinist, your argument is with God Himself.