| Spirit-Filled / Charismatic The forum for all charismatic churches and movements. |
 | | 
9th July 2012, 03:49 PM
|  | Favoured of the Lord
47      
| | Join Date: 19th September 2006 Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Posts: 4,034
Blessings: 21,635,430 My Mood 
Reps: 338,849,225,871,258,752 (power: 338,849,225,871,269) | | Originally Posted by abysmul  They are going after this guy over code and very precise legal terms... if its not "legally" recognized as a church, then it isn't a church.
It's not YOUR definition, or a Biblical definition, this would be a legal "code" definition.
Exactly. I couldn't have said it better myself.
Peace...
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
9th July 2012, 03:59 PM
|  | Legend
35 
| | Join Date: 16th August 2005 Location: PA
Posts: 17,243
Blessings: 4,392,546
Reps: 566,743,855,287,629,376 (power: 566,743,855,287,654) | | Originally Posted by dkbwarrior You do need a permit to build a biulding. You do not need a permit to host a Bible study. That is why the city is not calling it a Bible study, they are calling it a church. And a church, for legal charges, has a legal definition.
What is that legal definition?
I found this at the Phoenix Code website; Religious Facility: A facility for public worship services such as a church, synagogue, mosque, or temple which may include an assembly hall, sanctuary, meeting rooms, classrooms, and kitchen. Day care centers open to the public, elementary schools or high schools operating on the site of a religious facility shall be considered primary uses and not part of the religious facility for the purpose of assessing development impact fees.
Source: 29-3 Definitions.
Would you say that a 2,000 square foot building, constructed for the sole purpose of having a Bible study 3 times a week, is a "Religious Facility", or do we need a gaggle of lawyers to define that further?
So back to my original question; Why do Christians seem to think that they are above the law? 
__________________
"You're so vain, you probably think this post is about you."
"I am who I am, and I say what I mean." |
9th July 2012, 04:06 PM
|  | Not NASB only
46    
 | | Join Date: 17th June 2008 Location: Right here.
Posts: 1,448
Blessings: 3,001,900
Reps: 395,030,235,953,554,816 (power: 395,030,235,953,560) | | Originally Posted by probinson What is that legal definition?
I found this at the Phoenix Code website; Religious Facility: A facility for public worship services such as a church, synagogue, mosque, or temple which may include an assembly hall, sanctuary, meeting rooms, classrooms, and kitchen. Day care centers open to the public, elementary schools or high schools operating on the site of a religious facility shall be considered primary uses and not part of the religious facility for the purpose of assessing development impact fees.
Source: 29-3 Definitions.
Would you say that a 2,000 square foot building, constructed for the sole purpose of having a Bible study 3 times a week, is a "Religious Facility", or do we need a gaggle of lawyers to define that further?
So back to my original question; Why do Christians seem to think that they are above the law?
Just pointing that out.
__________________
Job 38: 4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand.
--
Romans 14, I put this here to remind myself to read all of it more often. |
9th July 2012, 04:18 PM
| | Legend
35
| | Join Date: 16th August 2005 Location: PA
Posts: 17,243
Blessings: 4,392,546
Reps: 566,743,855,287,629,376 (power: 566,743,855,287,654) | | Originally Posted by abysmul Just pointing that out.
Now we have to define what "worship" is, I suppose. I bet the lawyers are salivating at the prospect...
Ah, technicalities. 
The bottom line is, to any objective person, a 2,000 square foot building constructed for the sole purpose of studying the Bible 3 times per week with a pulpit up front is a very thinly veiled "church".
IMO, stuff like this does enormous damage to the cause of people who are truly being persecuted. This is just a guy who is in violation of zoning and codes crying wolf, which will make it that much harder for those people who are facing actual persecution.
__________________
"You're so vain, you probably think this post is about you."
"I am who I am, and I say what I mean." |
9th July 2012, 04:24 PM
| | Not NASB only
46
| | Join Date: 17th June 2008 Location: Right here.
Posts: 1,448
Blessings: 3,001,900
Reps: 395,030,235,953,554,816 (power: 395,030,235,953,560) | | | If it's a private home, and it is not public, then why would it qualify as a church?
__________________
Job 38: 4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand.
--
Romans 14, I put this here to remind myself to read all of it more often. |
9th July 2012, 04:30 PM
|  | Barbary pirates? Or are they?
39  
| | Join Date: 30th November 2011
Posts: 1,600
Blessings: 7,983,202 My Mood 
Reps: 150,847,793,096,224,992 (power: 150,847,793,096,228) | | Originally Posted by abysmul If it's a private home, and it is not public, then why would it qualify as a church?
Because it was built as a private residence, which is not what it is being used for. It is now being used as a meeting place for a growing number of people. The city is making a point. If you want to get together in large groups you better go about it the right way.
__________________
No trees were harmed in the posting of this message, however, a great many electrons were temporarily inconvenienced. |
9th July 2012, 04:49 PM
| | Legend
| | Join Date: 2nd September 2002
Posts: 17,873
Blessings: 1,661 My Mood 
Reps: 84,817,804,877,348,560 (power: 84,817,804,877,376) | | I wonder if the state who is demanding that this is a "church" is prepared to give back the taxes that have been paid on the "church" building. Are they prepared to act on their own decisions.
I suspect that will not happen and the whole point has nothing to do with "codes" etc... rather it is the goal of those complaining to just shut down the church or Bible Study.. regardless of what they want to call it.
As usual the state just uses the "codes" as weapons to enforce their will.
Dishonest and dirty.
There is nothing wrong with a person having a Bible Study in his own home.
I also suspect this same "code" could be used to shut down thousands of "Home Churches" that are popping up across the country. The devil certainly would love to do that and also cheers on the good Christians who support that goal. Gee, then when they decide to tax "real" churches out of existence there will be nowhere for Christians to gather. Home Churches will be illegal and Large buildings used will be to expensive to maintain.
Good work law abiders!!!! 
Are we in China circa 1970?
__________________
HELLO SAINTS!
See my best ranting and raving here:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
See part two of my blog here:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
"...do not be concerned that some do not see your message. There are those who are hungrey for truth and who are seeking light. If there is truth in what you are saying, it will ring in their hearts like a bell. Those who are seeking will find, and if what they are seeking is in your saying, they will know it."
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Dids |
9th July 2012, 05:58 PM
| | Legend
35
| | Join Date: 16th August 2005 Location: PA
Posts: 17,243
Blessings: 4,392,546
Reps: 566,743,855,287,629,376 (power: 566,743,855,287,654) | | Originally Posted by didaskalos I wonder if the state who is demanding that this is a "church" is prepared to give back the taxes that have been paid on the "church" building. Are they prepared to act on their own decisions.
I suspect that will not happen and the whole point has nothing to do with "codes" etc... rather it is the goal of those complaining to just shut down the church or Bible Study.. regardless of what they want to call it.
As usual the state just uses the "codes" as weapons to enforce their will.
Dishonest and dirty.
I guess we'll probably never know, since this guy has chosen to defy the law, rather than abide by it. Originally Posted by didaskalos There is nothing wrong with a person having a Bible Study in his own home.
No one said there was. But this guy isn't just having a Bible study in his own home. He built a 2,000 square foot building for the purpose of housing the "Bible study". He placed a commercial sign out front. There's a pulpit in the 2,000 square foot building and 40 seats.
I find it either incredibly ignorant of the facts or remarkably dishonest to say that this guy is just having a Bible study in his own home. There's far more to it than that. Originally Posted by didaskalos I also suspect this same "code" could be used to shut down thousands of "Home Churches" that are popping up across the country. The devil certainly would love to do that and also cheers on the good Christians who support that goal. Gee, then when they decide to tax "real" churches out of existence there will be nowhere for Christians to gather. Home Churches will be illegal and Large buildings used will be to expensive to maintain.
I don't see your point. Every single church in existence today has had to abide by zoning and code laws. Yet somehow, churches across the country have managed to survive and thrive.
Zoning and code regulations are nothing new. Why all of a sudden should this guy be exempt from the same regulations every one else must abide by?
__________________
"You're so vain, you probably think this post is about you."
"I am who I am, and I say what I mean." |
9th July 2012, 05:59 PM
| | Legend
35
| | Join Date: 16th August 2005 Location: PA
Posts: 17,243
Blessings: 4,392,546
Reps: 566,743,855,287,629,376 (power: 566,743,855,287,654) | | Originally Posted by abysmul If it's a private home, and it is not public, then why would it qualify as a church?
There's a sign out front advertising his Bible study. Does that sound private to you?
__________________
"You're so vain, you probably think this post is about you."
"I am who I am, and I say what I mean." |
9th July 2012, 06:58 PM
| | Legend
35
| | Join Date: 16th August 2005 Location: PA
Posts: 17,243
Blessings: 4,392,546
Reps: 566,743,855,287,629,376 (power: 566,743,855,287,654) | | Interesting. While reading up on this story from various sources, I ran across this (emphasis added); "..Michael Salman has battled his neighbors and the city of Phoenix for years, arguing he has the constitutional right to have about 50 friends each week to worship God in the backyard of his home, near 31st and Northern avenues..."
"...The ministry has a name -- Harvest Christian Fellowship Church -- but only because some kind of church affiliated is required for members to be allowed to help prisoners, Salman tells New Times. Otherwise, the group isn't a church. To him, he's just having people over in a "private setting." None of the guests even park on the street, he says..."
"...Salman says he pulls in no salary from his role as pastor..."
Source: Pastor Michael Salman Files Federal Complaint Over Right to Hold Backyard Church Services; Phoenix Says Structure Violates Codes - Phoenix News - Valley Fever
You still think this guy, Pastor Michael Salman of Harvest Christian Fellowship, with a weekly congregation of about 50 (that's a bit more than 15-20 we heard about earlier in the thread) people, is just having a private "Bible study" in his home?
His argument that his church is not public is "...'I know these people', he says. 'My home is not open to the public'..." But I could say the same of my church, where the current congregation size is between 30-40 people. Everyone knows everyone else. That doesn't make it any less a "public" building.
So I'm curious for those that see this as a violation of his rights to gather privately; at what point would you say this becomes a "church"?
__________________
"You're so vain, you probably think this post is about you."
"I am who I am, and I say what I mean." | | |
| Thread Tools | | | | Display Modes |  Linear Mode |
| | |
