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  #11  
Old 6th July 2012, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by ThinkFreeDom View Post
I am interested in how Christians who believe in theistic evolution feel about the Creationist/Intelligent Design element of the faith.

Excessively literalistic interpretations of Genesis inevitably pit faith against science, in regard to scientific questions. This is a battle that faith can't win and the result is lost credibility, especially among the more educated sections of the population who would be an asset to Christianity.

Moreover the attempt to force Creationism into science classes has aroused the anger of some of the world's most eloquent scientists. I am thinking of Neil deGrasse Tyson, Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris. Surely your faith would be better off without such powerful detractors? Would it not be a better strategy to keep faith and science separate? To say nothing of faith and politics.

In addition these groups often present Christianity and science as mutually exclusive. Do you really want young Christians to have to make that choice?

The ID movement and the vocal anti-evolutionary stance of some sections of Evangelical Christianity seems to me to be a terrible miscalculation, that is damaging to all of Christianity. The press focuses on this radical fringe, making it loom much larger than it really is.

Do mainstream Christians see this? If they do why don't they do more to make the more reasonable voice of Christianity heard?
Personally, I object to my children being taught the fairy tale that is evolution in school.

You really expect someone to sit down with a small child and teach them as such? "Son, in the beginning there was nothing. Then nothing happened to nothing and then nothing exploded into everything. Then there was goo, and that goo oozed onto a rock, that came out of the nothing, and contracted and extraordinary complex DNA programming which was just laying around minding it's own business. After this, the goo became something less gooey because it's DNA replicated itself, but actually 'oopsed' and replicated itself perfectly, but with millions of changes, into something with a fin, and the less gooey thing liked its fin, and gritted where it's teeth would be a billion years later, and chose it's offspring to have more fin-like DNA." etc, etc, etc

And that's more reasonable than "All that you see had an origin and a designer, and that designer is the all-powerful God, who created you in His image and likeness"? No, I don't have enough blind faith to be an evolutionist in any way.

Just because a bunch of people run around handing out degrees in their fairy tale, and peer reviewing each others papers as ground-breaking fairy tale news, and writing books about how they think goo became kangaroos, even though they've never actually seen it happen (because they guess, and revise their guesses as they go), doesn't mean that I have to willfully subscribe to their nonsense. Talk about the blind leading the blind, sheesh.

And then somehow, you chaps made your way into the classroom and called your fairy tale "science". Thanks, but no thanks.
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  #12  
Old 6th July 2012, 07:42 AM
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Abiogenesis and speciation are both poorly supported concepts in evolution. I agree with the basic principle of natural selection insofar as necessity will select for certain traits, but the idea that new species will arise from genetic mutation is questionable to me.

I think that you can have significant variation within a degree of possible traits for a species, but mutation won't produce a new species. Mutations are, for the most part, harmful to an organism and even the ones that are beneficial do not make for a new species (e.g. sickle cell anemia.)
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  #13  
Old 6th July 2012, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by ThinkFreeDom
I am interested in how Christians who believe in theistic evolution feel about the Creationist/Intelligent Design element of the faith.

Excessively literalistic interpretations of Genesis inevitably pit faith against science, in regard to scientific questions. This is a battle that faith can't win and the result is lost credibility, especially among the more educated sections of the population who would be an asset to Christianity.

Moreover the attempt to force Creationism into science classes has aroused the anger of some of the world's most eloquent scientists. I am thinking of Neil deGrasse Tyson, Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris. Surely your faith would be better off without such powerful detractors? Would it not be a better strategy to keep faith and science separate? To say nothing of faith and politics.

In addition these groups often present Christianity and science as mutually exclusive. Do you really want young Christians to have to make that choice?

The ID movement and the vocal anti-evolutionary stance of some sections of Evangelical Christianity seems to me to be a terrible miscalculation, that is damaging to all of Christianity. The press focuses on this radical fringe, making it loom much larger than it really is.

Do mainstream Christians see this? If they do why don't they do more to make the more reasonable voice of Christianity heard?
What can one do?

Yes, the incredible stupidity is frustrating.
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  #14  
Old 6th July 2012, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Nails74 View Post
I think you view this issue as "you follow a religion and I don't", but it is much bigger than that. We aren't just talking about "my beliefs", but my foundation of truth. Though we look at the same scientific evidence, we reach two completely different conclusions...because we start from two different places. Our world-views are completely opposite.
I think you don't understand my views. I am simply asking why mainstream Christians don't do more to protect Christianity from the radical elements within the faith. I don't understand your personal view either, but most Creationist/Literalist come at this from the point of view that the Bible should be taken literally and is inerrant and they do everything they can to defend that position.

That is the polar opposite of scientific thinking. Which seeks to discover scientific (not spiritual) truths through observation and experiment. Faith and science are different, that is my point, why try and present your faith as science? What do you gain from that?

I am not arguing about whether you are right or not, or whether the Standard Model is right or not, I simply want to know why Creationist deliberately seek conflict with science, which is neutral on questions of spiritual belief. Why poke the bear?

Originally Posted by Nails74 View Post
You've used the Matthew 10 passage out of context...

“Look, I’m sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as serpents and as harmless as doves. Because people will hand you over to sanhedrins and flog you in their synagogues, beware of them. You will even be brought before governors and kings because of Me, to bear witness to them and to the nations. But when they hand you over, don’t worry about how or what you should speak. For you will be given what to say at that hour, because you are not speaking, but the Spirit of your Father is speaking through you. [Matthew 10:16-20]
Not out of context at all, the verse still implores the use of intelligence. What surprises me is how extremist are foolish enough to attack science, and lose again and again, damaging their own reputation. Why not simply argue that faith is personal and is not an issue for science. That would be wiser and nothing would be lost.


Originally Posted by Nails74 View Post
The basis of your reasoning is reason? Is that your ultimate authority?
I don't need an 'ultimate authority'.

Last edited by ThinkFreeDom; 6th July 2012 at 08:07 AM.
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  #15  
Old 6th July 2012, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna View Post
Abiogenesis and speciation are both poorly supported concepts in evolution. I agree with the basic principle of natural selection insofar as necessity will select for certain traits, but the idea that new species will arise from genetic mutation is questionable to me
Well you are welcome to try and disprove what is accepted by the world's greatest universities. No-one is stopping you. Write that book.
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  #16  
Old 6th July 2012, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Faulty View Post
Personally, I object to my children being taught the fairy tale that is evolution in school.
That is fine, you have that right, but why try and force others to accept your position? What gives Creationists the right to force their belief into the school curriculum?

Originally Posted by Faulty View Post
You really expect someone to sit down with a small child and teach them as such? "Son, in the beginning there was nothing. Then nothing happened to nothing and then nothing exploded into everything. Then there was goo, and that goo oozed onto a rock, that came out of the nothing, and contracted and extraordinary complex DNA programming which was just laying around minding it's own business. After this, the goo became something less gooey because it's DNA replicated itself, but actually 'oopsed' and replicated itself perfectly, but with millions of changes, into something with a fin, and the less gooey thing liked its fin, and gritted where it's teeth would be a billion years later, and chose it's offspring to have more fin-like DNA." etc, etc, etc
No, but I would expect them to teach Evolution by Natural Selection.

Originally Posted by Faulty View Post
And that's more reasonable than "All that you see had an origin and a designer, and that designer is the all-powerful God, who created you in His image and likeness"? No, I don't have enough blind faith to be an evolutionist in any way.

Just because a bunch of people run around handing out degrees in their fairy tale, and peer reviewing each others papers as ground-breaking fairy tale news, and writing books about how they think goo became kangaroos, even though they've never actually seen it happen (because they guess, and revise their guesses as they go), doesn't mean that I have to willfully subscribe to their nonsense. Talk about the blind leading the blind, sheesh.

And then somehow, you chaps made your way into the classroom and called your fairy tale "science". Thanks, but no thanks.
Well you are welcome to challenge the facts. If it is a fairy tale it should be easy to disprove.
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  #17  
Old 6th July 2012, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by ThinkFreeDom View Post
Well you are welcome to try and disprove what is accepted by the world's greatest universities. No-one is stopping you. Write that book.
I don't care who believes it: appeals to authority don't count as facts in my book. I haven't seen anything that's convincing on this topic, so I don't ascribe to that belief.
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Old 6th July 2012, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by ThinkFreeDom View Post
The ID movement and the vocal anti-evolutionary stance of some sections of Evangelical Christianity seems to me to be a terrible miscalculation, that is damaging to all of Christianity. The press focuses on this radical fringe, making it loom much larger than it really is.

Do mainstream Christians see this? If they do why don't they do more to make the more reasonable voice of Christianity heard?
It can be damaging to maybe the non-believer who uses these particular Christians' beliefs to justify there own disbelief. I don't see how ID is damaging to Christianity or the society. It seems just like an easy target to focus on to try to criticize Christianity as a whole. And that criticism, from both within and from without the Church, is how the church evolves. These criticisms aren't damaging but productive to help eliminate irrational thinking and try to get the Church as error free as possible so that we can do the necessary work. I have my fingers crossed that theonomy is the next popular meme to use to criticize Christianity so we can try to eliminate that.

The reasonable voice is heard easily enough, it is just ignored by those who find it convenient to do so because it goes against their previously held position.
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Old 6th July 2012, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna View Post
I don't care who believes it: appeals to authority don't count as facts in my book. I haven't seen anything that's convincing on this topic, so I don't ascribe to that belief.
That is fine, but you have to let people make their own decisions and not try and force your beliefs onto others, or stand by and allow others to do that without objecting.
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Old 6th July 2012, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ThinkFreeDom View Post
That is fine, but you have to let people make their own decisions and not try and force your beliefs onto others, or stand by and allow others to do that without objecting.
As far as I can tell, I've never tried to force my beliefs on others.

As to the issue of public school curricula, I think that school should cover creationism in some way. I don't think creationism -- or anything else for that matter -- should be held out to be the absolute truth, but it should be at least discussed.

The idea of a mandatory public school system is always a touchy subject when popular viewpoints are excluded. If children are forced to attend, then there should be adequate representation of the views held by the community.
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