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25th June 2012, 01:11 PM
|  | He who plants a tree, plants a hope
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Reps: 1,144,723,702,856,300,032 (power: 1,144,723,702,856,307) | | Originally Posted by yedida  That's your opinion.
No, it's not my opinion. It's Judaism. If I gave my opinion it would look a little different but my opinion is irrelevant. |
26th June 2012, 10:57 AM
|  | My Handsome Boy!
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Reps: 5,620,995,720,774,873,088 (power: 5,620,995,720,774,889) | | Originally Posted by xDenax No, it's not my opinion. It's Judaism. If I gave my opinion it would look a little different but my opinion is irrelevant.
So does that mean you don't consider the Chasidim part of Judaism?
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2 Let Israel now say, "His mercy endures forever."
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26th June 2012, 11:57 AM
|  | Contending for the truth
  
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Reps: 999,303,292,078,869,504 (power: 999,303,292,078,873) | | Originally Posted by Lulav So does that mean you don't consider the Chasidim part of Judaism?
Good question! |
26th June 2012, 12:35 PM
| | He who plants a tree, plants a hope
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Reps: 1,144,723,702,856,300,032 (power: 1,144,723,702,856,307) | | Originally Posted by Lulav So does that mean you don't consider the Chasidim part of Judaism?
Are you guys claiming all of the Chassidic world believes the Rebbe is the messiah? |
26th June 2012, 01:27 PM
| | My Handsome Boy!
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Reps: 5,620,995,720,774,873,088 (power: 5,620,995,720,774,889) | | Originally Posted by xDenax I have no idea if you are under the impression that it's totally normal to think Schneerson is the messiah but it isn't. At all. Are there a few people still clinging to it despite the obvious fact he's dead. Probably...but that isn't normative Jewish belief.
Dead people who didn't fulfill the prophecies can't be the Jewish messiah. It's just that simple. To say otherwise would be to change Judaism.
Said so matter-of-factly by someone so new to Judaism. 
I don't know what you've been taught about what a normal Jew thinks or believes, but there are many who believed and many who still believe he was Messiah. Almost 10,000 attended his 'coronation' in Brooklyn with many watching around the world.
You may have been taught it is 'just that simple' but you really can't speak for all Jews, now can you?
From what I know, his dying did not disqualify him from being Messiah, as much controversy surrounded his death with the Lubevichters, there are still many that believe in a resurrection.
According to David Berger in his book The Rebbe, the Messiah, and the Scandal of Orthodox Indifference and other observers, very few Chabad adherents will say that "the Rebbe wasn't/isn't the Messiah". Some will say that "he might be", but a very large number will say that he certainly is the Messiah.
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1Give thanks to the Lord, for He is good! For His mercy endures forever.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
2 Let Israel now say, "His mercy endures forever."
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3 Let the House of Aaronnow say, "His mercy endures forever."
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4 Let those who fear the L-RD now say, "His mercy endures forever."
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~ Ps 118 |
26th June 2012, 01:35 PM
|  | formerly HadassahSukkot
 
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Reps: 455,787,989,484,672,960 (power: 455,787,989,484,677) | | Originally Posted by Avodat Heard a minister this morning who started off his sermon by saying that John the Baptist came into the world to baptise Gentiles to make them Jews!
THAT is a first for me - never before have I heard this 'new theology'! Anyone heard this before? Where does it come from?
I've never heard it...
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26th June 2012, 01:59 PM
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Reps: 2,881,651,240,490,564,096 (power: 2,881,651,240,490,580) | | Originally Posted by Avodat t neither has Schneerson's death brought in a time of peace so, by the same token he cannot be Messiah either!
Exactly. He isn't the messiah, and any belief that he is lies outside the bounds of normative Jewish thought. Many Orthodox groups have roundly condemned Chabad for the belief of those who think the Rebbe is moshiach. Not all of Chabad believes it, most of those I have met do not, but yes there are some of them.
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אין עוד מלבדו
Hillel says: Be among the disciples of Aaron, loving peace and pursuing peace, loving people, and bringing them closer to the Torah.
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26th June 2012, 02:02 PM
| | He who plants a tree, plants a hope
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Reps: 1,144,723,702,856,300,032 (power: 1,144,723,702,856,307) | | Originally Posted by Lulav Said so matter-of-factly by someone so new to Judaism.
I don't know what you've been taught about what a normal Jew thinks or believes, but there are many who believed and many who still believe he was Messiah. Almost 10,000 attended his 'coronation' in Brooklyn with many watching around the world.
You may have been taught it is 'just that simple' but you really can't speak for all Jews, now can you?
From what I know, his dying did not disqualify him from being Messiah, as much controversy surrounded his death with the Lubevichters, there are still many that believe in a resurrection.
I have never claimed to speak for all Jews. Not once. To any audience. I sure as heck don't claim to speak for the Lubavitchers.
I don't need a lesson in Judaism from a self labeled "third generation messianic" who was raised with Christianity and is still at the heart of the matter, a Christian (before you get offended I'd take note of the message board on which we are posting). You have a bad attitude, you don't like me and that's fine. You have another forum where you can discredit and bad mouth me until the cows come home. I'm not even there to argue with you about it. You can say whatever your little heart desires! Why not leave this one for the other Messianics who actually want to have conversations with Jews rather than run them all off? I'm sure there are some here who actually like having a dialog with us. I understand you are not one of those people but you don't have to ruin it for everyone else. Now, once again I've let you bait me and I'll likely be the one who gets in trouble for it. Oh well. I guess that's the way it goes.
As for my point about the Chassidim, the Lubavitcher movement is not the whole of the Chassidic community. I suppose you are going to continue to insist all the Chabaniks believe the Rebbe is the messiah and I can't talk you out of it. When they discuss on their website that he isn't or when you ask a Chabad Rabbi (which I've done personally) if it's true and they assure you that it's not something they all believe, they must be lying. So, no point in trying to convince anyone otherwise but let's not forget they are not the only Chassidic groups out there.  |
26th June 2012, 02:06 PM
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Reps: 2,881,651,240,490,564,096 (power: 2,881,651,240,490,580) | | Originally Posted by yedida There are groups out there now that think this guy or that guy is the messiah, and they are still Jews. Where's the difference? Schneerson, someone else, or Yeshua? The only difference I see is in the time they came to be here....
There is a great difference in the view of who and what the messiah is.
You cannot compare the Rebbe to Jesus (well, I guess you could but it's not
an apt comparison  )
Those who believe the Rebbe is moshiach are a small minority, and they have been roundly condemned for it. One does not have "faith" in the Rebbe or in any moshiach. The messiahship of Jesus is rooted in Christian faith, and is quite different from Judaism.
And here is an interesting thing.....when one converts to Judaism one is usually asked if they believe if the messiah has already come. I heard of one potential convert who told the bet din that he did believe that the Rebbe was the messiah. He was not allowed to convert. So although some of Chabad may believe it, it is not an accepted belief, and in conversion to Judaism, a belief in any messiah who has already come puts a stop to the conversion process.
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אין עוד מלבדו
Hillel says: Be among the disciples of Aaron, loving peace and pursuing peace, loving people, and bringing them closer to the Torah.
Last edited by ChavaK; 26th June 2012 at 02:16 PM.
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26th June 2012, 02:10 PM
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Reps: 2,881,651,240,490,564,096 (power: 2,881,651,240,490,580) | | Originally Posted by Lulav Said so matter-of-factly by someone so new to Judaism.
Those who are new to Judaism often put to shame many born Jews.
I've seen more than one born Jew be impressed with the knowledge of "new arrivals "
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אין עוד מלבדו
Hillel says: Be among the disciples of Aaron, loving peace and pursuing peace, loving people, and bringing them closer to the Torah.
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