| Christian Apologetics A forum to discuss the systematic defense of the Christian belief system with other Christians. |
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19th June 2012, 09:38 AM
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Reps: 21,423,712,426,964,132 (power: 0) | | | Genesis and Revelations: Literal or metaphor?
I've noticed a double-standard in how some people interpret the scriptures.
Some would like to treat the entire book including the Genesis stories as literal fact yet of those people I haven't found any who can make sense of a literal reading of Revelations.
How then do we know which parts should be taken literally and which parts are metaphor?
Why do they say that the talking serpent is real (Genesis 3:1) but the beast of the sea is metaphoric (Revelation 13:1)?
Why do they say that the global flood is real (Genesis 6) but the sounding of the trumpets is metaphoric (Revelation 8)?
Obviously no one thinks Revelations is literal do they?
If not, why do you think Genesis is literal? |
19th June 2012, 09:42 AM
|  | God loves your words, may men love them also
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Reps: 68,748,888,919,290,576 (power: 68,748,888,919,299) | | | "I have told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this."
Who said this?
"There are some standing here who will not die until they see the kingdom of God"
Why was this said?
(great questions)
(I am trying to be minimalist, by the way, that is why I have just offered pointers) |
19th June 2012, 10:18 AM
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Reps: 359,274,841,238,434,688 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by KhaosTheory  I've noticed a double-standard in how some people interpret the scriptures.
Some would like to treat the entire book including the Genesis stories as literal fact yet of those people I haven't found any who can make sense of a literal reading of Revelations.
Then you haven't spoken to the right people. Revelation (singular) is complex, but understandable, and it makes perfect sense when one takes the time to read and exegete it correctly. Originally Posted by KhaosTheory How then do we know which parts should be taken literally and which parts are metaphor?
I believe you are applying your own inability to decipher Revelation to all believers, and all believers are not struggling with it as you. Also, you are asking the wrong question. It should ask, "How can I discern between metaphor, allegory and history in the Bible?" When you properly frame the question, you can begin to investigate to find the answer. Originally Posted by KhaosTheory Why do they say that the talking serpent is real (Genesis 3:1) but the beast of the sea is metaphoric (Revelation 13:1)?
Because the language and tense of the Hebrew demands a literal reading while the Greek demands a metaphorical understanding. You must realize that all languages are like English, in that there is metaphorical language and there is literal language. If I say in English, "She is like a bird in flight," am I saying she flies and carries worms in her mouth back to her nest? Hardly. It isn't difficult to understand that other languages have similar sentence structures that dictate how the sentence should be read. Originally Posted by KhaosTheory Why do they say that the global flood is real (Genesis 6) but the sounding of the trumpets is metaphoric (Revelation 8)?
I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone say that. I'm pretty certain, in fact, that there will be fanfare of some type in announcing the seal, bowl and trumpet judgments in Revelation. Originally Posted by KhaosTheory Obviously no one thinks Revelations is literal do they?
Is that a question, or a challenge? I think Revelation is literal, with a tapestry of allegory, metaphor and prophecy woven together to tell a literal story of future history. Many of the things John saw were beyond his comprehension. How, for example, would a first century man describe a vision of a helicopter, an airplane or an M1A1 tank? He did the best he could considering his senses were absolutely overwhelmed with what to him was an incredible and other-worldly vision. Originally Posted by KhaosTheory If not, why do you think Genesis is literal?
As I consider the whole Bible to be literal, and an even more complex tapestry of the literal, the prophetic, the poetic, the allegorical and the metaphorical, I think the question answers itself.  |
19th June 2012, 10:45 AM
|  | Can't wait for the rapture!
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Reps: 7,529,994,504,222,437 (power: 7,529,994,504,240) | | | It's not an either/or. These books contain metaphor, analogy, poetic devices as well as literal historical passages. As already said the key is determining what's what from the passage. Unsurprisingly there is much disagreement among Christians about just what is what.
__________________ simul justus et peccator |
19th June 2012, 11:01 AM
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Reps: 359,274,841,238,434,688 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by KhaosTheory Yes, and many things the ancient Hebrews saw were beyond their comprehension.
How, for example, would a group of savage, nomadic goat herders describe a vision of the big bang singularity, the accretion via gravitational forces of the planet, or abiogenesis?
Since they didn't observe those things, they didn't have to describe them. What Moses described in Genesis 1 & 2 was the creation story as dictated by God. Originally Posted by KhaosTheory Maybe Genesis is a metaphor as well?
Nope. But nice try. Originally Posted by KhaosTheory I love your wishy-washy explanation of "well, you see, if you study deep down into the linguistic context using local customs and oral transitions along with a theological interpretation of the dialectical nuances with the.... BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH.
Actually I'm not at all surprised you refer to that as "wishy-washy." It is a characterization that won't hold up to scrutiny, but gives you an easy out for ignoring it. You don't want to get involved in proper exegesis of the Bible and understand the nuances of the original languages because that would challenge your deeply held biases and force you to rethink them. You completely overlooked the proof point I made about the English language in your post, indicating it is too rational for you to deal with, because again, realizing that would require acceptance or rejection of God's truth. Seems you've already made that choice. Originally Posted by KhaosTheory You sound just like an apologist.
Thanks, that's the nicest thing you've ever said to me or anyone on here. Originally Posted by KhaosTheory Do you think an omniscient, all-powerful God would make his divine word so confusing that you have to hire a team of linguists and theologians to dissect and analyze each and every word just to come up with 1000 different conflicting interpretations?
I have only one interpretation, not thousands, and it is actually the simplest explanation. As you are fond of citing Occam's Razor, you can appreciate that. Your insistance that it is more complex than your Darwinist theory is pure hogwash, as the astronomically complex mathematical odds of the events as Darwin described them are too remote and far-fetched to be viable. Originally Posted by KhaosTheory It's ridiculous. Just stop and think about what you are saying for one second.
I did. I'm not sure you have.
Last edited by WinBySurrender; 19th June 2012 at 12:45 PM.
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19th June 2012, 11:17 AM
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Reps: 216,390,250,992,884,000 (power: 0) | | | Most of Genesis is not literal. Very few Jews view it as literal (and it's a Jewish book not a Christian book), and even Christians have rejected a literal view for over a thousand years (Saint Augustine). Revelation is also a metaphoric attack on the Roman Empire.
Anyone who claims those are literal quite obviously don't understand the evidence. |
19th June 2012, 11:30 AM
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Reps: 359,274,841,238,434,688 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by Jase Most of Genesis is not literal. Very few Jews view it as literal (and it's a Jewish book not a Christian book), and even Christians have rejected a literal view for over a thousand years (Saint Augustine). Revelation is also a metaphoric attack on the Roman Empire.
Anyone who claims those are literal quite obviously don't understand the evidence.
Though I'm sure you intend this baseless opinion as an end-all, be-all post, it falls miserably short. |
19th June 2012, 12:03 PM
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Reps: 39,391,869,233,306,400 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by WinBySurrender Then you haven't spoken to the right people. Revelation (singular) is complex, but understandable, and it makes perfect sense when one takes the time to read and exegete it correctly.I believe you are applying your own inability to decipher Revelation to all believers, and all believers are not struggling with it as you. Also, you are asking the wrong question. It should ask, "How can I discern between metaphor, allegory and history in the Bible?" When you properly frame the question, you can begin to investigate to find the answer.Because the language and tense of the Hebrew demands a literal reading while the Greek demands a metaphorical understanding. You must realize that all languages are like English, in that there is metaphorical language and there is literal language. If I say in English, "She is like a bird in flight," am I saying she flies and carries worms in her mouth back to her nest? Hardly. It isn't difficult to understand that other languages have similar sentence structures that dictate how the sentence should be read.I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone say that. I'm pretty certain, in fact, that there will be fanfare of some type in announcing the seal, bowl and trumpet judgments in Revelation.Is that a question, or a challenge? I think Revelation is literal, with a tapestry of allegory, metaphor and prophecy woven together to tell a literal story of future history. Many of the things John saw were beyond his comprehension. How, for example, would a first century man describe a vision of a helicopter, an airplane or an M1A1 tank? He did the best he could considering his senses were absolutely overwhelmed with what to him was an incredible and other-worldly vision.As I consider the whole Bible to be literal, and an even more complex tapestry of the literal, the prophetic, the poetic, the allegorical and the metaphorical, I think the question answers itself.
i agree
To the guy that posted about "stop and think what your saying"
Stephen hawking has said "Imperfection is why we are here"
Well, if that is the case, then some things cant be perfect and some things be imperfect..
"Us" being the imperfection, cant live on a planet that is perfectly away from the sun, with perfect amount of land and water.
Some things cant be perfect, and some things imperfect, if we all came from the "big bang"
Please tell me
How do rational beings come from irrational beings?
How is a rock a rock
But i am a "me"
This blows science out of the water, when you ask these questions....
How do mammoths, frozen in ice, end up in tropical/sub tropical climates
if there was no flood? |
19th June 2012, 12:05 PM
|  | elman
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Reps: 53,822,349,527,765,392 (power: 53,822,349,527,802) | | Originally Posted by KhaosTheory I've noticed a double-standard in how some people interpret the scriptures.
Some would like to treat the entire book including the Genesis stories as literal fact yet of those people I haven't found any who can make sense of a literal reading of Revelations.
How then do we know which parts should be taken literally and which parts are metaphor?
Why do they say that the talking serpent is real (Genesis 3:1) but the beast of the sea is metaphoric (Revelation 13:1)?
Why do they say that the global flood is real (Genesis 6) but the sounding of the trumpets is metaphoric (Revelation 8)?
Obviously no one thinks Revelations is literal do they?
If not, why do you think Genesis is literal?
I completely agree. Forcing literalism is the greatest danger to misunderstanding the bible. Jesus said the letter kills, but the spirit gives life. |
19th June 2012, 12:27 PM
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| | Join Date: 13th June 2012 Location: Lubbock, TX
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Reps: 39,391,869,233,306,400 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by elman I completely agree. Forcing literalism is the greatest danger to misunderstanding the bible. Jesus said the letter kills, but the spirit gives life.
has nothing to do with literal or metaphor
stop taking things out of context. | | |
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