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22nd June 2012, 02:46 AM
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Reps: 691,209,366,977,688,960 (power: 691,209,366,977,729) | | Originally Posted by Rurik
That is real presence. I don't think that RP was ever in dispute except maybe by people who looked to Zwingle but rather what form it took.
Depends what one means by real presence.
If one means that the bread becomes body, the wine becomes blood, then plenty reject it.
If one means no more than "Christ is with us in a particular way when we do this" then it's another matter.
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22nd June 2012, 03:02 AM
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Reps: 1,520,859,557,517,240 (power: 1,520,859,557,524) | | Originally Posted by ebia Depends what one means by real presence.
If one means that the bread becomes body, the wine becomes blood, then plenty reject it.
If one means no more than "Christ is with us in a particular way when we do this" then it's another matter.
You just summed up the debate in two lines and both sides would argue that their interpretation of real presence is the right one. Cranmer may not agree with what you think real presence is but the liturgy he wrote did express that it was there in some form
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22nd June 2012, 03:14 AM
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Reps: 691,209,366,977,688,960 (power: 691,209,366,977,729) | | Originally Posted by Rurik
You just summed up the debate in two lines and both sides would argue that their interpretation of real presence is the right one. Cranmer may not agree with what you think real presence is but it cannot be argued that the liturgy he wrote expressed that it was there in some form.
The issue is that when people ask "Do Anglicans believe jn real-presence" they often mean the first of my two definitions, as per Catholics, EOs and Lutherans.
Unless we mean the same thing by the phrase a yes or no answer is meaningless. We're all using the same words but not in a consistent way.
__________________ "Goodness is stronger than evil,
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light is stronger than darkness,
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22nd June 2012, 05:45 AM
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Reps: 1,520,859,557,517,240 (power: 1,520,859,557,524) | | Originally Posted by ebia The issue is that when people ask "Do Anglicans believe jn real-presence" they often mean the first of my two definitions, as per Catholics, EOs and Lutherans.
Unless we mean the same thing by the phrase a yes or no answer is meaningless. We're all using the same words but not in a consistent way.
I understand what you are saying. However I think it devalues the Anglican posistion on real presence if we do not defend our stance on it. We need to say the yes we do believe in real presence but it differs from your understanding of it. Do you think that Catholics, Orthodox and Lutherans would say we don't beleave in the real presence because it differs from you?
__________________ Yet I am always with you;
you hold me by my right hand.
You guide me with your counsel,
and afterward you will take me into glory.
Whom have I in heaven but you?
And earth has nothing I desire besides you.
My flesh and my heart may fail,
but God is the strength of my heart
and my portion forever. -Psalm 73 | 
22nd June 2012, 05:50 AM
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Reps: 691,209,366,977,688,960 (power: 691,209,366,977,729) | | Originally Posted by Rurik
I understand what you are saying. However I think it devalues the Anglican posistion on real presence if we do not defend our stance on it. We need to say the yes we do believe in real presence but it differs from your understanding of it.
There's no point defending a stance without being clear what it is being defended. Do you think that Catholics, Orthodox and Lutherans would say we don't beleave in the real presence because it differs from you?
I would think that most of them (including a lot of Anglicans) would say that Cranmer's understanding of the eucharist is not what they mean by the question. They are asking "do you believe the host is really the body of Christ, the cup really contains the blood of Christ?". To that Cranmer would answer "no". To silently redefine the question and then say "yes" without making clear you're answering a different question isn't very good communication.
Just to take wikipedia's definition as as good a version as any of what is generally being asked:
"Real Presence is a term used in various Christian traditions to express belief that in the Eucharist, Jesus Christ is really present in what was previously just bread and wine,..."
A Cranmarian answer to that is "no".
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Last edited by ebia; 22nd June 2012 at 05:58 AM.
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22nd June 2012, 06:55 AM
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Reps: 4,391,616,657,474,674,688 (power: 4,391,616,657,474,717) | | Originally Posted by ebia The issue is that when people ask "Do Anglicans believe jn real-presence" they often mean the first of my two definitions, as per Catholics, EOs and Lutherans.
Unless we mean the same thing by the phrase a yes or no answer is meaningless. We're all using the same words but not in a consistent way.
I always say that we (or I, that is, taking the Articles' POV) do believe in the RP, but in my guts I always know that what you've said here is right. | 
22nd June 2012, 07:55 AM
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Reps: 1,520,859,557,517,240 (power: 1,520,859,557,524) | | Originally Posted by ebia There's no point defending a stance without being clear what it is being defended.
Once again I agree with you. This is why I said that we need to make our theology known rather that say "No we do not belive in real prescence" Originally Posted by ebia I would think that most of them (including a lot of Anglicans) would say that Cranmer's understanding of the eucharist is not what they mean by the question.
I agree with you hear as well but I think this is a result of people not defending the churchs posistion on real presence. We seem to be ready to just aplogise and move on or agree with what the other party says. Originally Posted by ebia They are asking "do you believe the host is really the body of Christ, the cup really contains the blood of Christ?". To that Cranmer would answer "no". To silently redefine the question and then say "yes" without making clear you're answering a different question isn't very good communication.
From what I can see in the thirty nine ariticals I think he would say yes and then explane how it worked Article XXVIII Of the Lord’s Supper
The Supper of the Lord is not only a sign of the love that Christians ought to have among themselves one to another; but rather it is a Sacrament of our Redemption by Christ’s death: insomuch that to such as rightly, worthily, and with faith, receive the same, the Bread which we break is a partaking of the Body of Christ; and likewise the Cup of Blessing is a partaking of the Blood of Christ....
The Body of Christ is given, taken, and eaten, in the Supper, only after an heavenly and spiritual manner. And the mean whereby the Body of Christ is received and eaten in the Supper is Faith.
It can clealy seen hear that the intention for real prescence is there but it dissagrees with what other churchs think real prescence is. It is the Body and blood chirist it just does not fit into the defination of what other churches think. Do you think that the Roman Catholics would sudenly say "Oh no we do not belive in real prescence" because what they thought of real precence and how it worked dissagred with the Lutheren in the room? Originally Posted by ebia Just to take wikipedia's definition as as good a version as any of what is generally being asked:
"Real Presence is a term used in various Christian traditions to express belief that in the Eucharist, Jesus Christ is really present in what was previously just bread and wine,..."
A Cranmarian answer to that is "no".
I think the Cranmarian answer would be that deffernition of real presence is wrong.
__________________ Yet I am always with you;
you hold me by my right hand.
You guide me with your counsel,
and afterward you will take me into glory.
Whom have I in heaven but you?
And earth has nothing I desire besides you.
My flesh and my heart may fail,
but God is the strength of my heart
and my portion forever. -Psalm 73 | 
22nd June 2012, 08:46 AM
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22nd June 2012, 09:04 AM
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Reps: 34,962,487,098,082 (power: 34,962,487,099) | | | Christ is truly present in the Lord's Supper. but how the Lord is present is totally beyond my understanding. I'm just happy to know that he is there.
nobody from Augustine, Aquinas or Cranmer have in my opinion ever explained the mystery in any way that makes me understand it, nor have any of them managed to convince me with all their Scholastic philosophy that Christ is truly present or not present.
Christ's promise of being with us in the Sacrament transcends human philosophy and even church teaching on the matter. even if the Articles rejected the RP the articles don't stop Christ from keeping his word. | 
22nd June 2012, 09:09 AM
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Reps: 4,391,616,657,474,674,688 (power: 4,391,616,657,474,717) | | Originally Posted by BrisbaneAnglican even if the Articles rejected the RP the articles don't stop Christ from keeping his word.
but to be sure we're all speaking the same language here, the Articles do NOT reject RP. They reject Transubstantiation. |  | | | Thread Tools | | | | Display Modes | Linear Mode | | | |