Creation & EvolutionForum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too.
Little Johnny lived in the city of Leipzig, in the Holy Roman Empire in 1805.
Little Johnny was taught in school that he lived in the Holy Roman Empire, but kept insisting that he actually lived in "The Federal Republic of Germany."
His teacher kept telling him there was no such place as "The Federal Republic of Germany," but Little Johnny persisted. When asked why, he replied "I don't know."
Just before his final exam, Little Johnny was warned by his teacher not to write anything about "The Federal Republic of Germany" in his exam, or he would flunk out.
Since Little Johnny truly believed he lived in "The Federal Republic of Germany," he wrote about living there on his exam and flunked out. He became a bum.
If Little Johnny was taking his exam today, he would be correct to say he lived in "The Federal Republic of Germany."
Here is the million-dollar question:
Was Little Johnny wrong?
__________________ "When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them, we had the Bible and they had the land."
-Archbishop Desmond Tutu
"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread ... nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"
-Isaac Azimov
He be wrong. At the time he lived in the Holy Roman Empire.
__________________ "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours" Stephen H. Roberts
Yep. If my philosophical terms are correct, I believe this is called a contingent truth.
So, what trap are we laying with respect to creation/evolution?
Personally, I think you could very well argue that with the knowledge available around the time when Jesus (or Moises, or Abraham) lived, creationism (and by that I mean a 6,000 year old earth) was the "contingent truth" for those who lived at that time.
__________________ "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours" Stephen H. Roberts
Personally, I think you could very well argue that with the knowledge available around the time when Jesus (or Moises, or Abraham) lived, creationism (and by that I mean a 6,000 year old earth) was the "contingent truth" for those who lived at that time.
How very odd that I would try to make this point, but evolution is a very ancient idea. Certainly what Darwin proposed was an advancement of the idea, but it is an old idea nonetheless. You can find hints of it in Anaxiamander and probably many other ancient writers - much like the idea of the atom was proposed by Democritus and others, but not really made into a cogent theory until Dalton et. al.
P.S. And if it wasn't obvious, I was agreeing with you, CabVet.
__________________ sola gratia
Last edited by Resha Caner; 13th June 2012 at 09:12 PM.
How very odd that I would try to make this point, but evolution is a very ancient idea. Certainly what Darwin proposed was an advancement of the idea, but it is an old idea nonetheless. You can find hints of it in Anaxiamander and probably many other ancient writers - much like the idea of the atom was proposed by Democritus and others, but not really made into a cogent theory until Dalton et. al.
I agree ... I personally believe Solomon studied [prescient] evolution ...
1 Kings 10:22 For the king had at sea a navy of Tharshish with the navy of Hiram: once in three years came the navy of Tharshish, bringing gold, and silver, ivory, and apes, and peacocks.
... and concluded [prescient] evolution to be an 'invention,' not a 'discovery.'
Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
I agree ... I personally believe Solomon studied [prescient] evolution ...
Funny you should bring that up. I anticipated that the next reply might be: yeah, but that doesn't mean Biblical authors were familiar with the idea. So, I started a mini-search of my own.
I'll have to say, though, that the verses you shared seem a bit of a stretch. Biblical authors were obviously aware of atheism (Psalm 14:1), and thinking about abiogenesis is an obvious question that would arise to an atheist, but I haven't found anything yet that would more explicitly indicate a familiarity - except maybe the many verses (especially Romans 1:20) that speak of nature declaring God's creative power.
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