YOU ARE HERE: The sixth Seal (Historicist viewpoint)

Aijalon · #1 11th June 2012, 12:43 PM

... or, it could even be the seventh perhaps. First off, I am not a full historicist, I don't believe that any of the Trumpets or Bowls have occurred, but I do feel very strongly that History shows that Seals 1-6 have been "opened".

Chapter 1 v.3 & Ch 22 v.18 of Revelation explain critical information that dictate how we should view the book. First, that John is seeing a prophecy - not only a vision. This points to fulfilment of real events, not simply metaphors, although there are metaphors contained within. (Rev 4:1 explains that things must "come to pass")

Second, Rev1:3 explains that the events or effects will unfold in the lifetime (or generation) to whom the prophecy was given, ie the life of John. "The time is nigh" cannot be viewed in any other way, John clearly believed that these things were about to begin. Indeed Jerusalem was in the process of being desolated during that very time by the Romans!

So we MUST look for fulfilment of the First Seal in the time of John. I will provide the short version of my view and we can discuss the merits or details as you people try to dice it to pieces, as I know you will.

1. The White Horse - Conqueror (Approx 70 A.D.)= Around the time of the Great Jewish Revolt and the period of The 'Pax Romana' and success of Roman Empire, a unique period in history is recorded with relative peace and stability, it ended with the sacking of Rome by Germanic tribes and permanent division of the Empire - paving the way for Seal 2.

2. The Red Horse - War (approx 400 A.D.) = Fall of the Western Roman Empire and the Continous war between the Eastern Roman empire and the Arabic/middle-eastern empire which lasted about 1000 years. From this time on no generation will be spared from large warfare - paving the way for Seal 3.

3. The Black Horse - Poverty (Approx 800 A.D forward ) = Rise of Feudalism (economic slavery). Centuries of warfare decimates the wealth and resources of Governments who tax their peasants to utter poverty. Subsistence farming becomes common. The church and the State increase in power and corruption. Feudalism took hold accross the globe during this time and created a class system still seen today. (meanwhile war continues, as does the expansion of empires)

4. The Pale Horse - Pestilence = (Approx 1200 A.D forward) = widespread death caused by disease, smaller wars and rebellions, genocide, etc. This period is marked by the "Black Death" and cultural decline of Medievil times which actually resulted in a reduction of Europe's population by approximately 25 to 30%! The Black Death also plagued many other parts of the world off and on for over a Century. From this time onward minor war, plague, and general chaos will torment the earth with very high frequency. (Black Death, The Crusades... etc)

Look around you and today you will see the continuing effects of all four of these "Horsemen of the Apocalypse"

5. The Cry of the Martyrs. (Approx 1500 A.D.) The fifth seal doesn't appear to "unleash" anything upon the earth, but we do actually see at a violent rearangement of the poliltical and religious landscape in which religious persection reaches new heights. The corrupt and wealthy Elite Royalty and Clergy have accumulated great power. This period includes the famous Spanish Inquisition, and rise of Protestantism and Zionism.

6. Sixth Seal (Approx 1800 A.D - Present Day)
Earthquake. Signs in the Heavens. Men hide from God.
As with the other 5 seals, a broad spectrum of events resulted from each one. Likewise with Seal 6. In the last few hundred years massive earthquakes have occured and are increasing. Heaven has indeed been uncovered (perhaps the space program???). Strange and spooky comets and (Hale Bopp, Lulin, Lovejoy, etc....) Eclipses.... Men have indeed been preparing for something to happen, UN, NWO, Cold War, War on Terror..... The earth is litteraly saturated with deep bukers and bomb shelters....

NEXT ON THE MENU, SEAL 7!!

interpreter · #2 11th June 2012, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by Aijalon

... or, it could even be the seventh perhaps. First off, I am not a full historicist, I don't believe that any of the Trumpets or Bowls have occurred, but I do feel very strongly that History shows that Seals 1-6 have been "opened".

Chapter 1 v.3 of Revelation explains critical information that dictates how we should view the book. First, that John is seeing a prophecy - not only a vision. This points to fulfilment of real events, not simply metaphors, although there are metaphors contained within. (Rev 4:1 explains that things must "come to pass")

Second, Rev1:3 explains that the events or effects will unfold in the lifetime (or generation) to whom the prophecy was given, ie the life of John. "The time is nigh" cannot be viewed in any other way, John clearly believed that these things were about to begin. Indeed Jerusalem was in the process of being desolated during that very time by the Romans!

So we MUST look for fulfilment of the First Seal in the time of John. I will provide the short version of my view and we can discuss the merits or details as you poeple try to dice it to pieces, as I am know you will.

1. The White Horse - Conqueror (Approx 70 A.D.)= Around the time of the Great Jewis Revolt and the period of The 'Pax Romana' and Ssccess of Roman Empire, a unique period began with relative peace, and ended with the sacking of Rome by Germanic tribes and permanent division of the Empire - paving the way for Seal 2.

2. The Red Horse - War (approx 400 A.D.) = Fall of the Western Roman Empire and the Continous war between the Eastern Roman empire and the arabic/middle eastern empire which lasted about 1000 years. From this time on no generation will be spared from large warfare - paving the way for Seal 3.

3. The Black Horse - Poverty (Approx 800 A.D forward ) = Rise of Feudalism (economic slavery). Centuries of warfare decimates the wealth and resources of Governments who tax their peasants to utter poverty. Subsistence farming becomes more common. The church and the State increase in power and corruption. Feudalism took hold accross the globe during this time and created a class system still seen today. (meanwhile war continues, as does the expansion of empires)

4. The Pale Horse - Pestilence = (Approx 1200 A.D forward) = widespread death caused by disease, smaller wars and rebellions, genocide, etc. This period began is marked by the "Black Death" and cultural decline of Medievil times which actually resulted in a reduction of Europe's population by approximately 25 to 30%. From this time onward minor war, plague, and general chaos will torment the earth with very high frequency. (Black Death, The Crusades... etc)

Look around you and today you will see the continuing effects of all four of these "Horsemen of the Apocalypse"

5. The Cry of the Martyrs. (Approx 1500 A.D.) The fifth seal doesn't appear to "unleash" anything upon the earth, but we do actually see at a violent rearangement of the poliltical and religious landscape in which religious persection reaches new heights. The corrupt and wealthy Elite Royalty and Clergy have accumulated great power. This period includes the famous Spanish Inquisition, and rise of Protestantism and Zionism.

6. Sixth Seal (Approx 1800 A.D - Present Day)
Earthquake. Signs in the Heavens. Men hide from God.
As with the other 5 seals, a broad spectrum of events resulted from each one. Likewise with Seal 6. In the last few hundred years massive earthquakes have occured and are increasing. Heaven has indeed been uncovered (perhaps the space program???). Strange and spooky comets and (Hale Bopp, Lulin, etc....) Eclipses.... Men have indeed been preparing for something to happen, UN, NWO, Cold War, War on Terror..... The earth is litteraly saturated with Deep bukers and bomb shelters....

NEXT ON THE MENU, SEAL 7!!

You are correct in saying the Revelation began unfolding soon after John received it. The first horseman arrived on the scene in 312 AD, on Oct.28th, when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, and Jesus came into power through St. Constantine who rode a white horse and conquered with a bow.
The 2nd horseman is probably Charles the Great, who rode a red horse and conquered with a great sword.
The 3rd horseman is probably King James who rode a blacl horse. The British empire that he founded conquered with economics.
The 4th horseman is probably George Washington who rode a pale horse. US weapons bring hell and death.
We are now experiencing the 7 last plagues of ch. 16.

Manasseh_ · #3 11th June 2012, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by Aijalon

Second, Rev1:3 explains that the events or effects will unfold in the lifetime (or generation) to whom the prophecy was given, ie the life of John. "The time is nigh" cannot be viewed in any other way, John clearly believed that these things were about to begin. Indeed Jerusalem was in the process of being desolated during that very time by the Romans!

as in all false premises vital information is always left out , overlooked or completely ignored................

you forgot............

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

John still beginning the prophecy says clearly when he was seeing these visions...........the short time leading up to Christ's final return to rule............."THE LORD'S DAY" known in many other prophecies of scripture as the DAY OF THE LORD.................although there are parts of Revelation already fulfilled in the past, the main thrust of the prophecy is speaking of the final end time (tribulation), 3.5 years .........then Christ's return to earth............so the prophecy could not have been applied to John's day or his generation

The seals of Rev 6 tie directly to Christ's Olivet Prophecy of Matt 24..............and in this prophecy Christ clearly states that if God does not intervene during this great time of trouble mankind will annihilate itself from the planet............

Matt 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

obviously during John's generation and many other generations to come man has not had the ability destroy all flesh.......but with modern weaponry unchecked if deployed it would be an easy thing to do in this age...........nuclear weaponry today is hundreds of times more powerful than the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs dropped during WWII...........and those 2 bombs alone killed more than 200,000 not counting those that died of radiation sickness..........one bomb today can kill millions and a number of nations have this capability now , not just the US as in WWII............but it's not going to get to this final point because scripture promises that God will cut it short of this for the elect's (saints) sake

....and Jerusalem as you mentioned was already desolated in 70ad some nearly 30 years before John was given this vision and there were a number of uprisings and Jerusalem being desolated in history after John's generation had passed

historicists will attempt to get around this by claiming that John wrote the Revelation around 60ish ad instead of 90ish ad........conveniently leaving out the fact that Polycarp was John's apostle during the time he wrote the Revelation ............if it had been 60's ad then Polycarp would either not even been born or would have been a infant at the time......... (baby apostle)

the first seal , the white horse was representative of false religion and deception.........which is exactly the first thing Christ told his apostles in his Olivet Prophecy............take heed that no man deceive you...........this white horse rider is a counterfeit to the real white horse rider in Rev 19 (Christ)........masquerading as the real Christ.............many shall come in MY NAME saying I am Christ but shall deceive many...........this white horse rider is symbolic of the whole system that teaches deception in the "name" of Christ....saying it's christian but isn't

it's very simple to read Christ's Olivet Prophecy then go to Rev 6 and the opening of the seals and see how they fall right in order with each other..............for full understanding Christ's Olivet prophecy is in Matt 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13............

we're in the first seal still............false religion and deception.............

and this "historicist view" is part of it

Aijalon · #4 11th June 2012, 08:12 PM

You are correct in saying the Revelation began unfolding soon after John received it. The first horseman arrived on the scene in 312 AD, on Oct.28th, when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, and Jesus came into power through St. Constantine who rode a white horse and conquered with a bow.

Is you serious?? If yes, what sign was it exactly? And if Jesus came back through constantine, then when did the rapture take place? Or is that at the second second coming?

We are now experiencing the 7 last plagues of ch. 16

.
I must have missed it, when did those happen?

as in all false premises vital information is always left out , overlooked or completely ignored................

you forgot............

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

John still beginning the prophecy says clearly when he was seeing these visions...........the short time leading up to Christ's final return to rule............."THE LORD'S DAY" known in many other prophecies of scripture as the DAY OF THE LORD.................although there are parts of Revelation already fulfilled in the past, the main thrust of the prophecy is speaking of the final end time (tribulation), 3.5 years .........then Christ's return to earth............so the prophecy could not have been applied to John's day or his generation

You misanderstand the term. It refers to the first day of the week. It is not the same thing as "THE GREAT DAY OF THE LORD" Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, you are you are jumping to a conclusion before John has even given the vision because you have already made up your mind that Revelation is only fulfilled in the future, when all John was saying is when and where he was when he saw the vision (which is verse 10, after he already provided the context of the vision - a prophecy close at hand), he did not apply this vision as all encompassed by "THE GREAT DAY OF THE LORD". That is the final judgement, clearly there are many levels of judgement occuring in stages throughout the book, this is plainly obvious.

miamited · #5 11th June 2012, 08:52 PM

hi Aijalon,

I tend to agree with your understanding that some of the prophecies of the Revelation have already begun.

Here's my take:

The white horse and its rider is the gospel and it was loosed as soon as Jesus ascended to the Father, and it still rides the earth today.

The red horse and its rider gave power to men to slay one another and was also released after the gospel and it also still rides the earth today making men slay one another.

The black horse and its rider bring the rule of money. Food is no longer given freely, but bought and sold and becomes a way into poverty then for lack of money to buy food. This horse and rider still ride the earth today.

Finally the pale horse brought death and hades to ride the earth and they were given power to slay 1/4th of the earth's inhabitants and they still ride today.

I believe that they were all released pretty much in rapid succession and that each one is still doing that for which it was appointed unto God. I'm not able to find any connection to particular world events that might have been the sign that each horsemen was released, except for the white horse, and then it follows chronologically that the others were released after the white horse, but I'm more inclined to understand that it was pretty much release, release, release and release in fairly rapid succession.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

interpreter · #6 12th June 2012, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by Aijalon

Is you serious?? If yes, what sign was it exactly? And if Jesus came back through constantine, then when did the rapture take place? Or is that at the second second coming?

.
I must have missed it, when did those happen?

The sign in the clouds was an unusual alignment of the planets which formed a cross or X. There was no rapture. Instead, Constantine sent his messengers with a trumpet, and gathered all the Church together, to Nicea.
We are now experiencing (1) skin cancer, (2) red tides, (3) polluted fresh water, (4) global warming, (5) new diseases, and (6) the Euphrates was dry on 9/11 when the first shot of the Battle of Ar Mageddon was fired.

Manasseh_ · #7 12th June 2012, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Aijalon

You misanderstand the term. It refers to the first day of the week. It is not the same thing as "THE GREAT DAY OF THE LORD"

there is not one shred of evidence that this is referring to a particular day of the week, it's not even referring to sabbath, scripture always makes plain whether it's speaking about a particular day of the week........the LORD's DAY means exactly what it says here, John is in vision and about to be shown the tribulation and God's wrath which follows on those mainly responsible for it ......then following afterward , Christ's return to rule

you've taken the 4 horse symbols, then picked small portions of history, then mis-applied those symbols to points in history that have passed ............completely missing the point of the prophecy and missing a great deal of historical facts that have followed since....

the main point , after these events that you've mentioned , things have changed and grown better in the world.................

the prophecy of Revelation shows a completely different picture, ..............after each seal is opened things grow worse and worse finally culminating in the return of Christ

the last verse in the chapter shows that the "LORD'S DAY" is simply different wording for the Day of the Lord , or Great and Terrible Day of the Lord...............however worded in different prophecies they all point to God's anger kindled and His vengeance............again none of it speaking or teaching about a certain day of the week

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

........so John begins by calling it the LORD'S DAY and the chapter ends with John showing that it is the LORD'S DAY aka the GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH.............aka from other prophecies of scripture the DAY OF THE LORD, aka THE GREAT AND TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD...............

as plainly seen by reading from beginning to end here , it's obvious that John is not speaking about a particular day of the week.......

and the chapter is in complete agreement with Christ's Olivet Prophecy in Matt 24...........

I've made this point so many time in this forum, you can put the Olivet Prophecy right beside Rev 6 comparing both as you read and see that they tie directly together in order of events..........

Olivet Prophecy............deception
Rev......first seal............shown as white horse
Olivet Prophecy.............Wars and rumors of wars, kingdom against kingdom , nation against nation
Rev......second seal.........shown as red horse........takes peace from the earth

anyone can read the rest and see they follow in exact order............once again the Olivet prophecy is found in Matt 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13.........each ends in Christ's return , just as in Revelation

your day of the week response is just that .................weak

onlybygrace84 · #8 13th June 2012, 02:06 AM

Originally Posted by Manasseh_

there is not one shred of evidence that this is referring to a particular day of the week, it's not even referring to sabbath, scripture always makes plain whether it's speaking about a particular day of the week........the LORD's DAY means exactly what it says here, John is in vision and about to be shown the tribulation and God's wrath which follows on those mainly responsible for it ......then following afterward , Christ's return to rule

you've taken the 4 horse symbols, then picked small portions of history, then mis-applied those symbols to points in history that have passed ............completely missing the point of the prophecy and missing a great deal of historical facts that have followed since....

the main point , after these events that you've mentioned , things have changed and grown better in the world.................

the prophecy of Revelation shows a completely different picture, ..............after each seal is opened things grow worse and worse finally culminating in the return of Christ

the last verse in the chapter shows that the "LORD'S DAY" is simply different wording for the Day of the Lord , or Great and Terrible Day of the Lord...............however worded in different prophecies they all point to God's anger kindled and His vengeance............again none of it speaking or teaching about a certain day of the week

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

........so John begins by calling it the LORD'S DAY and the chapter ends with John showing that it is the LORD'S DAY aka the GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH.............aka from other prophecies of scripture the DAY OF THE LORD, aka THE GREAT AND TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD...............

as plainly seen by reading from beginning to end here , it's obvious that John is not speaking about a particular day of the week.......

and the chapter is in complete agreement with Christ's Olivet Prophecy in Matt 24...........

I've made this point so many time in this forum, you can put the Olivet Prophecy right beside Rev 6 comparing both as you read and see that they tie directly together in order of events..........

Olivet Prophecy............deception
Rev......first seal............shown as white horse
Olivet Prophecy.............Wars and rumors of wars, kingdom against kingdom , nation against nation
Rev......second seal.........shown as red horse........takes peace from the earth

anyone can read the rest and see they follow in exact order............once again the Olivet prophecy is found in Matt 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13.........each ends in Christ's return , just as in Revelation

your day of the week response is just that .................weak

Manasseh you realize your reasoning for the Lord's Day of Revelation 1:10 not being the first day of the week (Sunday to us modern people) also negates your reasoning for it being the Day of the Lord, because no where in scripture does the Word ever refer to that day in such an informal term. It's always Day of the Lord, sometimes with great and terrible before hand... Not to mention the fact that if John were referring to the Day of the Lord then every single thing listed in Revelation would happen in one day, as it is the Day of the Lord not the time of the Lord, or Days of the Lord...

Early Christians often referred to Sunday, or the first day of the week, as the Lord's Day to celebrate it as the day Jesus rose from the dead, and early Church fathers going all the way back to the second century mentioned it in that context.

Aijalon · #9 16th June 2012, 11:25 PM

9 I, John, who also [am] your brother, and fellow-partner in the tribulation, and in the reign and endurance, of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, because of the word of God, and because of the testimony of Jesus Christ; 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's-day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, saying,

It is just plainly obvious that John is just telling us where and when he was, and what he was doing at the moment the vision came to him. He does not say his vision pertains to events on only the "Day of the Lord".

zeke37 · #10 17th June 2012, 08:09 AM

i gotta go with manasseh on this one.

actually, more than just one

we agree that the "vision" was "the Day of the Lord"/"Lord's Day" which is yet future.
John was taken somewhere...
and is seeing events, his present to our future...

and we agree that the 1st seal is false religion,
a counterfit, as proven by the greek definition for the "bow"...it is not a weapon..."toxon"

we also agree that the Olivette Discourse mirrors the seals in Rev6.

plus, i doubt that there would be any importance (for us this far removed) of saying that johnn was given rev on a Sunday...
but saying that the vision was about His return(Day of the Lord), and the days leading up to it,
is very significant.

there is nothing informal about calling that day,
that day,
the day of the Lord,
the Lord's day....
add what ever adjective you feel neccissary to add before any of them!

now, we can (at least i can) discuss whether that first seal is historic, continuing, or future
i think it's a little of each.