I don't know if any of you saw what happend in Denmark, where the Lutheran church has accepted to actually marry homosexual people. They have made a new wedding ritual for them and put it equal with the normal marriage ritual between man and woman.
What do you guys think of this?
I have a lot of Lutheran family members who are preparing to leave the lutheran church in Denmark as a result. They are shocked and saddend, and I feel for them.
I think the danish lutheran church, in case it can even be called a "church",
has let the gates of hades prevail against it and undermined its own right of existence as a Christian Church.
This is sad news, but not unexpected. Unfortunately the European mainline denominations have been on a downward spiral since the 1960s, and Denmark was one of the earliest, allowing female clergy in 1948. The common thread here is women's ordination, once that wall is broken the entire Church will begin to crumble. It is not a quick process, but slow and gradual. Even the CoF I believe will soon allow homosexuals to be "married."
Actions like this are nothing short of apostasy. Clearly the CoD is no longer Lutheran...perhaps a few members in the Church are Lutheran but the organization has clearly fell into apostasy. It is no longer an orthodox Christian Church. (Ignoring the fact that Rome does not consider Lutherans to be a Church regardless).
__________________ For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. - Romans 8:18
“Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession.... Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate.” - Dietrich Bonhoeffer
This is sad news, but not unexpected. Unfortunately the European mainline denominations have been on a downward spiral since the 1960s, and Denmark was one of the earliest, allowing female clergy in 1948. The common thread here is women's ordination, once that wall is broken the entire Church will begin to crumble. It is not a quick process, but slow and gradual. Even the CoF I believe will soon allow homosexuals to be "married."
Actions like this are nothing short of apostasy. Clearly the CoD is no longer Lutheran...perhaps a few members in the Church are Lutheran but the organization has clearly fell into apostasy. It is no longer an orthodox Christian Church. (Ignoring the fact that Rome does not consider Lutherans to be a Church regardless).
You are right, the Catholics don't believe in severel churches. The Bible speaks of only one. We believe the Church Christ founded was the Catholic one but we also believe that Lutherans are part of the mystical body of Christ through baptism, which means, we know you are not Catholics but we do regard you as a part of the Body, linked intimately to us. Thats why the Catholic Church also calls Lutherans "brothers" and "sisters" (though the Lutherans don't always reciprocate
Anyway, I really care about the Lutheran Church in my country.. and am sorry that its sherpherds have so blatantly abandoned their flock to the volves. Yes, the sad thing is that just one politician came and demanded a new marriage ritual for the Lutheran Church, and the whole thing came tumbling down... bishops first. I know a very saintly pastor who wept tears of sorrow over this, and after struggling a great deal, he had to leave the Lutheran church and start a socalled free church.
When one part of the body suffers, the whole body suffers. I hope my Lutheran friends and family will now step up tell the politicians they have no authority....
Peace be with you.
Ps. Im not sure that I necessarily believe that women pastors are the first step towards homosexual marriage. I think liberal Christianity generelly leads in a worldly direction, but I do think there are many female church leaders who don't approve of gay marriage in the church, and who try to take the Bible seriously. Dont you agree?
Yeah, there is only a matter of time before this happens to the Church of Norway too. They are actually discussing it these days. When I read about it this morning in "Vaart Land" (Norway's largest Christian newspaper), I jokingly told my old father that I now "stood with one foot in the Tiber". It's not easy being a Confessional Lutheran in Scandinavia these days; we are few, and wide spread. Well, maybe it's not easy being a Catholic in Scandinavia either, but at least they got eachother.
__________________ "and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." - John 8:32
"The tyrant dies and his rule is over; the martyr dies and his rule begins." - Søren Kierkegaard 1848
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers." - Romans 8:29
I just go from the official documents. In Dominus Iesus Rome said that Lutherans are not a Church. Rome has also said that we are seriously deficient in the means of salvation and that we do not have a valid Eucharist. In addition, Rome has said that Lumen Gentium and the famous subsist in clause should not be taken to mean that the Church is outside of Rome. However, the LCMS and every other Lutheran body acknowledges that Rome is a Church...even if there is heterodoxy within it.
I agree that there are good laywomen who take the Bible seriously...but a woman "pastor" is, by definition, not taking the Bible seriously since she is ignoring what the Bible says in 1 Tim 3. I'm not trying to be flippant or mean-spirited, I'm just going by the official teachings of both Churches. I actually consider Roman Catholics our allies here (these United states). Especially in the pro-life movement, which would not have survived without the support from the RCC. Also, as a former Roman Catholic, I don't have any ill will towards Rome, I just have some important disagreements with the doctrine taught there.
And yes, I agree, what's bad for one group is bad for the other. As to the story of the Pastor weeping, that's horrible. I'm not proud, I mourn for Christians desperately trying to get their Churches back from the liberals so eager to destroy Christ and His word. God grant those faithful Christians strength to endure the onslaught from the enemy.
__________________ For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. - Romans 8:18
“Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession.... Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate.” - Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Last edited by bach90; 8th June 2012 at 06:09 PM.
Reason: Clarification.
__________________ For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. - Romans 8:18
“Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession.... Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate.” - Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Yeah, there is only a matter of time before this happens to the Church of Norway too. They are actually discussing it these days. When I read about it this morning in "Vaart Land" (Norway's largest Christian newspaper), I jokingly told my old father that I now "stood with one foot in the Tiber". It's not easy being a Confessional Lutheran in Scandinavia these days; we are few, and wide spread. Well, maybe it's not easy being a Catholic in Scandinavia either, but at least they got eachother.
I'd say they are lots of confessional lutherans in Scandinavia, only that they are divided into several small church bodies. To be conservative and remain in the state (or former state) churches is pretty much impossible--if you're able to be a member of the state church, you haven't understood some core lutheran points in the first place, and hence cannot be a conservative lutheran.
I just go from the official documents. In Dominus Iesus Rome said that Lutherans are not a Church. Rome has also said that we are seriously deficient in the means of salvation and that we do not have a valid Eucharist. In addition, Rome has said that Lumen Gentium and the famous subsist in clause should not be taken to mean that the Church is outside of Rome. However, the LCMS and every other Lutheran body acknowledges that Rome is a Church...even if there is heterodoxy within it.
Didn't Vatican II however officially declare us "separated brethren"?
__________________ Law and Gospel knows nothing of "love the sinner, hate the sin" but rather says altogether "While we were still sinners Christ died for us." It does not separate the sinner and the sin but separates the sinner and Christ. Then by the daring power of the cross switches their places.
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