What do you all think of putting heretics to death?

Publius · #21 7th June 2012, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by Lion King

As it is written, so shall it be:

“All this I have told you so that you will not fall away. They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me." John 16:1-3

And who is "they" and why are they putting the disciples to death?

Is there a reason you chose to ignore the rest of the passage or any of the companion verses?

Nowhere in the Scriptures, does it ALLOW for the deaths of "heretics" at the hands of Christians. Anyone who says they are killing in the name of God is committing blasphemy against God.

Then why does the Bible tell us that there are circumstances in which God commands us to kill?

Lion King · #22 7th June 2012, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by Publius

And who is "they" and why are they putting the disciples to death?

Is there a reason you chose to ignore the rest of the passage or any of the companion verses?

The people being referred to as "they" are simply those unstable souls who killed "heretics" because they thought they were doing the work of God. Kinda like how the Roman Catholic church and Calvin had those who did not agree with them killed.

However, this only proved they never knew God.

If a man says, I love God, and hates his brother, he is a liar: for he that loves not his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? 1 John 4:20

Then why does the Bible tell us that there are circumstances in which God commands us to kill?

Those instances are ALL in the Old Testament. We do not live under the Old Covenant. There is a reason Jesus Christ saved that woman accused of adultery from being stoned to death.

Publius · #23 7th June 2012, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by Lion King

Those instances are ALL in the Old Testament.

I see. So, you believe the book of Romans is found in the OT?

There is a reason Jesus Christ saved that woman accused of adultery from being stoned to death.

...the same Jesus Christ who commanded that she be stoned in the first place.

Yes, the reason He saved her from being stoned to death was to demonstrate His authority to forgive sin.

Originally Posted by Lion King

Show me, where in the book of Romans, God commands you to kill?

This is the second time you've done that. Again, I never said God commands us to kill.

Honestly, if you're not even going to pay attention, what's the point of having this conversation with you?

The reason Christ saved the adulterous woman, was to teach us NOT to condemn anyone.

If you say so. But then, you're also the person who said that the book of Romans is in the Old Testament, so please forgive me if I don't take your opinions about the Bible very seriously.

If you choose to put someone to death simply because they are a sinner, are you not condemning yourself to death as well, since you yourself are a sinner as well?

I thought we were talking about putting heretics to death as punishment for their heresy.

Leave the judgement to God.

Even when He told us to judge?

Originally Posted by Lion King

Am I missing something here?

Yes. You're missing the difference between the Bible's support of capital punishment and killing in general.

First, I stated that the Bible does not command us to kill heretics, to which you asked where the Bible commands us to kill heretics.

Slogging on, you then widened the category to killing in general, which would include killing for sin, such as stoning in the OT, killing in self defense, killing in war, and capital punishment.

That was what I was responding to the second time.

What you did was a logical fallacy and, frankly, a dishonest debating tactic, called "moving the goalposts", which is where you ask a question and then take the answer to that question and apply it to another question or, in this case, another category altogether.

Lion King · #24 7th June 2012, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by Publius

I see. So, you believe the book of Romans is found in the OT?

Show me, where in the book of Romans, God commands you to kill?

...the same Jesus Christ who commanded that she be stoned in the first place.

Yes, the reason He saved her from being stoned to death was to demonstrate His authority to forgive sin.

As I said earlier, the Mosaic Law was a guide to the children of Israel until the coming of Christ.

Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. Galatians 3:16-20

The reason Christ saved the adulterous woman, was to teach us NOT to condemn anyone. However, when we kill heretics, are we not condemning ourselves as well? If you choose to put someone to death simply because they are a sinner, are you not condemning yourself to death as well, since you yourself are a sinner?

Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whosoever you are that judge: for in what you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you that judge do the same things. Romans 2:1

Leave the judgement to God.

Lion King · #25 7th June 2012, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by Publius

Then why does the Bible tell us that there are circumstances in which God commands us to kill?

Originally Posted by Publius

This is the second time you've done that. Again, I never said God commands us to kill.

Honestly, if you're not even going to pay attention, what's the point of having this conversation with you?

Am I missing something here?

Lion King · #26 7th June 2012, 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by Publius

Yes. You're missing the difference between the Bible's support of capital punishment and killing in general.

First, I stated that the Bible does not command us to kill heretics, to which you asked where the Bible commands us to kill heretics.

Slogging on, you then widened the category to killing in general, which would include killing for sin, such as stoning in the OT, killing in self defense, killing in war, and capital punishment.

That was what I was responding to the second time.

What you did was a logical fallacy and, frankly, a dishonest debating tactic, called "moving the goalposts", which is where you ask a question and then take the answer to that question and apply it to another question or, in this case, another category altogether.

Stan Ley · #27 8th June 2012, 01:11 AM

If every Christian denomination had the right to kill heretics there would be no church left.

Armistead14 · #28 8th June 2012, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by Lion King

Am I missing something here?

I'm beginning to think this is a joke.

Charlemagne4 · #29 8th June 2012, 11:26 AM

I personally do not believe that Christians should kill heretics, but I believe it is interesting that Thomas Aquinas, one of the greatest theologians in history, and greatest authorities on the Christian church thought so, as I believe Calvin and Luther did also. I think it is relevant for todays time. I think that the church should be as non-violent as possible and avoid war and executions. But it is interesting to think about. I think it is a good debate for Christians to have.

Charlemagne4 · #30 8th June 2012, 11:27 AM

I am not 100% sure about Luther and Calvin's attitudes towards heretics.