All my fault

gracealone · #11 5th June 2012, 05:05 PM

Although I'm not Hollyda and I don't know whether or not she's an athiest or agnostic so I can't be real sure of her respone to you, let me take a stab at what I think she might tell you. If she's an athiest she'd say that she cannot be upset about the possibility of not believing in God because she really doesn't believe in the concept of or even the word "God" and that's how she wants it to be. She's not worried about whether or not she's angering "God" by unbelief because for her - God - isn't a reality. If she really doesn't believe that "God is and that He's a rewarder of those who seek Him", then she can't possibly be upset about angering Him or about eternal seperation from Him. How can she fear being seperated from something she doesn't believe in. It would be like you saying.. I'm so upset that I've angered Santa Claus and now I'll always be the naughty little girl in his eyes. How could you possibly be upset about making Santa mad when you really know he isn't real. (at least I hope at this point you know that, if not, so sorry to burst your bubble) But God on the other hand... yeah.. He's real to you alright so the idea that you're not quite up to snuff in the belief department is really freaking you out. Which of course is because unlike Hollyda..you really do believe in Him, so much so that you fear eternal seperation from Him. It's not God you don't believe in sweetie it's you that you don't believe in. Like I've said before you really need to get over yourself. It's not as if He would save you on any merit of your own anyhow... or me or anyone else.
I say, that the part of you that you say doesn't want to believe is infinitesimally small compared to the part of you that actually does believe. This is why you are so frightened about all of this. This is how you are so very much unlike Hollyda if indeed she is an anti-thiest or an agnostic. Hollyda might have other OCD themes that are unrelated to your theme but what she's saying to you is that whatever the theme is whether it's about your relationship to God, your child, or whether you're going to die of aids, or whether you fear that you're going to become an ax murderer that all of it is OCD rather than a legitimate or valid concern. And if it's OCD then it must be treated as OCD or you won't get anywhere in regard to recovery.
Anyhow, Hollyda.. please feel free to correct me where I've erred in kind of speaking for you. Oh... and another thing, a real atheist who also suffers from OCD might actually struggle with a theme that is the opposite of yours. They might suddenly become very frightened and freaked out that God might be real after all and that in thinking that way they might not be able to continue on as an Athiest. But if that fear is driven by OCD they won't be able to get any feeling of certainty one way or the other in regard to it. On the other hand if it's driven by a normal, calm and rational questioning and investigating about whether or not God might be real then they'd be able to study, learn and make a decision, but OCD questioning is never satiated by any answer - no matter how logical it is. End of speech.

Mitzi (my brain hurts now.. must rest it)

Originally Posted by raven1

hollyda, how am i not like you (athiest or agnostic) when i doubt a great deal God is there. i think he is irrational to believe and part of me doesn't want to believe because of that but u said this wasn't spiritual?

hollyda · #12 5th June 2012, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by gracealone

Although I'm not Hollyda and I don't know whether or not she's an athiest or agnostic so I can't be real sure of her respone to you, let me take a stab at what I think she might tell you. If she's an athiest she'd say that she cannot be upset about the possibility of not believing in God because she really doesn't believe in the concept of or even the word "God" and that's how she wants it to be. She's not worried about whether or not she's angering "God" by unbelief because for her - God - isn't a reality. If she really doesn't believe that "God is and that He's a rewarder of those who seek Him", then she can't possibly be upset about angering Him or about eternal seperation from Him. How can she fear being seperated from something she doesn't believe in. It would be like you saying.. I'm so upset that I've angered Santa Claus and now I'll always be the naughty little girl in his eyes. How could you possibly be upset about making Santa mad when you really know he isn't real. (at least I hope at this point you know that, if not, so sorry to burst your bubble) But God on the other hand... yeah.. He's real to you alright so the idea that you're not quite up to snuff in the belief department is really freaking you out. Which of course is because unlike Hollyda..you really do believe in Him, so much so that you fear eternal seperation from Him. It's not God you don't believe in sweetie it's you that you don't believe in. Like I've said before you really need to get over yourself. It's not as if He would save you on any merit of your own anyhow... or me or anyone else.
I say, that the part of you that you say doesn't want to believe is infinitesimally small compared to the part of you that actually does believe. This is why you are so frightened about all of this. This is how you are so very much unlike Hollyda if indeed she is an anti-thiest or an agnostic. Hollyda might have other OCD themes that are unrelated to your theme but what she's saying to you is that whatever the theme is whether it's about your relationship to God, your child, or whether you're going to die of aids, or whether you fear that you're going to become an ax murderer that all of it is OCD rather than a legitimate or valid concern. And if it's OCD then it must be treated as OCD or you won't get anywhere in regard to recovery.
Anyhow, Hollyda.. please feel free to correct me where I've erred in kind of speaking for you. Oh... and another thing, a real atheist who also suffers from OCD might actually struggle with a theme that is the opposite of yours. They might suddenly become very frightened and freaked out that God might be real after all and that in thinking that way they might not be able to continue on as an Athiest. But if that fear is driven by OCD they won't be able to get any feeling of certainty one way or the other in regard to it. On the other hand if it's driven by a normal, calm and rational questioning and investigating about whether or not God might be real then they'd be able to study, learn and make a decision, but OCD questioning is never satiated by any answer - no matter how logical it is. End of speech.
Mitzi (my brain hurts now.. must rest it)

Wonderful summary.

gracealone · #13 5th June 2012, 05:14 PM

Outstanding Post Hollyda... You are an OCD expert at this point and your counsel is spot on in regard to OCD obsessions. Sorry I spoke on your behalf. I did it before you posted this. You know the OCD expert that helped me the most was the things written by Dr. Stephen Phillipson. He is so crystal clear on how this disorder runs the show and how to take it on so to speak. I know another gal with relationship OCD that used to frequent this forum. She hasn't been on here for awhile but she's been stuck in your same theme for quite some time. I may try to lure her back her by telling her about you. You up for that?
I am a believer and follower of Jesus Christ so in a way my "relationship OCD" latched on to that relationship. I thought it was a spiritual problem for a long time but once I started treating it as OCD in the right way through ERP I finally was able to get past it. What misery it was though so I know that Raven is really tortured right now.
I appreciate and respect your input.
Warmest Regards,
Mitzi

Originally Posted by hollyda

I'm not here as an atheist or an agnostic. I frequent this part of the board as an OCD survivor. I've been told by my therapist that people who get to my stage of recovery become makeshift, however unlicensed, OCD "experts." What I take this to mean is, "I know OCD when I see it."

If you want my statement as an atheist, here it is: I don't fear that god possibly exists and is angry with me. As an agnostic, I felt the same. Since I have that much experience being an atheist/agnostic, and given everything you've posted over the past year, I feel incredibly confident in saying that you have scrupulosity OCD.

OCD attacks whatever is most important to you. It has tried to make me believe I don't love my husband before, and how can you prove something like love? Your OCD is attacking your faith. How can you prove faith? You can't, just I can't prove I love my husband. With my OCD, I fear that if I don't love my husband I'll lose him, and I don't want to lose him. You see the circular reasoning here? The fact that I fear I'll lose him conflicts with the fear. The fact that you fear God for not believing is the same thing, just with some names changed.

The answer is in understanding you have OCD, understanding what thoughts feel like OCD (meaning: if it causes you stress, if you fear it, if it's an unwanted thought, and if you can't stop thinking it, it's OCD). And guess what: your OCD is just the same as mine, though your degree might be more elevated. It took me fifteen years to get to this level of acceptance and understanding. So I know what I'm talking about when I say your attitude will not magically change. You will not wake up one morning and not fear the things you fear. You have to get help. Real help. And you have to stop asking for reassurance, because all that does is trap you in a state of perpetual fear. You have to get used to sitting with your fear, as it'll start to fall all on its own. Don't fight the thoughts. Fighting them gives them power, gives them strength, and enables them to trap you into an endless cycle of fear.

hollyda · #14 5th June 2012, 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by gracealone

Outstanding Post Hollyda... You are an OCD expert at this point and your counsel is spot on in regard to OCD obsessions. Sorry I spoke on your behalf. I did it before you posted this. You know the OCD expert that helped me the most was the things written by Dr. Stephen Phillipson. He is so crystal clear on how this disorder runs the show and how to take it on so to speak. I know another gal with relationship OCD that used to frequent this forum. She hasn't been on here for awhile but she's been stuck in your same theme for quite some time. I may try to lure her back her by telling her about you. You up for that?
I am a believer and follower of Jesus Christ so in a way my "relationship OCD" latched on to that relationship. I thought it was a spiritual problem for a long time but once I started treating it as OCD in the right way through ERP I finally was able to get past it. What misery it was though so I know that Raven is really tortured right now.
I appreciate and respect your input.
Warmest Regards,
Mitzi

Aww, thank you. I'll certainly talk to anyone about OCD. Living in the midst of that much fear is crippling, and once you realize that your obsession about x is just the same as your obsession about y, regardless of the theme, you start to distance yourself from the obsessions, make them less about personal fears and more about a disorder.

I'm not an expert on how the mind words by any means, but people who have and understand OCD know how to spot it, and know how it operates. From the posts you've made, I'd say you're an expert on OCD, yourself.

hollyda · #15 5th June 2012, 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by gracealone

I am a believer and follower of Jesus Christ so in a way my "relationship OCD" latched on to that relationship. I thought it was a spiritual problem for a long time but once I started treating it as OCD in the right way through ERP I finally was able to get past it.

I just wanted to add -- this is the biggest obstacle I've come across in trying to help people with OCD specifically on these boards. Since I am a non-believer, I am concerned that my advice will be construed as "atheistic," when the truth is you can't look at scrupulosity as a religious issue, but as a part of the disorder. Fear is fear is fear, no matter how you slice it. And though I can't relate to having scrupulosity, I can imagine how scary it is. And since I do have OCD, I know how hard it is facing ANY fear, religious or not.

So...all this to say, I have nothing but respect for you. You faced your fears, understood them, and are now counseling others. If that's not expertise, I don't know what is.

raven1 · #16 5th June 2012, 06:40 PM

Yes it scares me I don't want to go to hell if God exists but there is this part that says its more rational to be agnostic and you won't have to worry about hell but I know I will still worry about hell but I don't know if hell exists but it could. Part of me says agnostics and athiests are smarter. So it feels like I am stuck between agnostism nd Christianity.

hollyda · #17 5th June 2012, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by raven1

Yes it scares me I don't want to go to hell if God exists but there is this part that says its more rational to be agnostic and you won't have to worry about hell but I know I will still worry about hell but I don't know if hell exists but it could.

People who are are agnostic or considering agnosticism aren't scared about being agnostic. So this is OCD.

raven1 · #18 5th June 2012, 06:46 PM

I still don't get y I would think they may be right or smarter and why part of me wants to be like them because it may be more rational. See I have this fear that because we are all different people maybe I could have some agnostic in me and this not all be OCD. Also because not everything is black and white. I have this same fear with the pedophile theme and is essentially what my counselor told me when she said she couldn't help me and maybe I should see a sex offender specialist before I act.

I also read a lot of athiest articles, if I was Christian y would I do that.

hollyda · #19 5th June 2012, 08:50 PM

Not all counselors know how to handle OCD, because OCD has been so thoroughly stigmatized by pop media. We see the show Monk and the prevalent thought is OCD is pure compulsion, but the compulsion could not exist without the obsession.

This is how OCD works. I'm saying this as someone who has had OCD for 20 years and knows what it looks like.

1) You start with Obsession. In your case, it's "I'm afraid I don't believe in God."
2) Obsession leads to Rumination (which is a fancy way of saying you expand the Obsession to include its causes and consequences). In your case, the rumination includes "if I believe God doesn't exist, I go to Hell" (consequence) and "nonbelievers are smarter" (causes)
3) Rumination leads to Compulsion. In your case, this consists of coming to the boards for reassurance and/or attempting to push the thoughts away. Also, engaging the thoughts and trying to analyze them is a compulsion as well. The thoughts themselves are meaningless, be it scrupulosity or pedophilia fears. By engaging them, you give them meaning, and therein give them power over you.
4) After a compulsion, you might feel momentary relief. However, your OCD finds a way around this, so we're back to step 1.

1) Obsession
2) Rumination
3) Compulsion
4) Repeat

Symptoms of OCD include the following:

1) Unwanted thoughts
2) Unwanted thoughts that cause great distress
3) Rumination over said thoughts
4) Compulsion as a means of relief

Sound familiar?

Every time you come here and ask these questions, and I mean it -- EVERY TIME -- you are either ruminating or compulsing. You're not making yourself better, you're making yourself worse. You're analyzing each crevice of each thought and giving it significance it doesn't really have. The only effective way of combating OCD -- and that means getting relief from your fears -- is by facing them. And facing your fears means preparing yourself to be uncomfortable. Facing your fears is hard work, but if you don't do the work, I can guarantee you that you will never get better. It's either do the work or feel like this forever. Which do you want to do?

If you choose to do the work, you can't rely on CF the way you have been. You can check in, ask for moral support, but you can't use CF or any other online forum as a tool to further your compulsing or rumination. You can't ask for reassurance anymore. You have to find a therapist who knows about OCD and prepare to buckle down for the long haul. This includes triggering yourself. This includes making statements like, "I believe God doesn't exist" without compulsing, whatever your compulsion ritual might be. It means sitting with your fear and holding onto it rather than trying to shove it away. If left untouched, fear will start to fade on its own. If shoved, it'll just get stronger. You have to be prepared to make yourself uncomfortable -- really, brutally uncomfortable through exposure therapy. CBT and ERP are the only known effective tools for treating OCD, and they ARE effective. But you can't do it halfway. And you have to listen rather than deflect.

Most importantly, stop taking ownership of these thoughts. Think of OCD as an alien invader inside your head, feeding you lines and trying to make you think the lines belong to you. You are so tangled in your obsessive fears you can't see where they end and you begin anymore -- it's time to take back your life. But if you can't do that, if you're not willing to do the work, there's no sense in anyone responding here. We can't fix it for you. Only you can.

raven1 · #20 6th June 2012, 06:13 AM

but the thoughts are really how i feel. i majorly doubt heaven, God, angels exist, that God can create the universe etc.