The Second Coming: Still on the cards?

1Em1Esseswife · #21 4th June 2012, 12:15 PM

Matthew 19:28 KJV

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

InSpiritInTruth · #22 4th June 2012, 12:40 PM

Foxie said "A very clear indication that things did not turn out as expected is in 2 Peter 3 where we read how Peter tries to give an explanation why Jesus did not come as expected. I almost feel sorry the man for his desperate back-pedalling attempt at trying to justify why the Second Coming never happened:
2 Peter 3:3-9

New International Version (NIV)
3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation. ……………………… (Peter at least admits that the second coming was expected to have happened within the lifetimes of some present in Matthew 16:28)
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
A day with the lord is like a thousand years… Where does he get that from? Jesus never said such a thing. He is blatantly making it up in an attempt to keep the promise alive." end quote

Psalm 90:4;"For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night."

He got it from the Word of God.

bling · #23 4th June 2012, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by Foxie

@bling

Bling, please name one good reason why the world cannot do without Satan other than him being the fear factor that keeps the Church alive, i.e. a reason that will explain why the world will not be a better place without Satan.

It is truly tragic that we need satan around on this earth, so God must quench His own desire to remove satan in order to provide us (me) with the best situation to grow and help others to fulfill their earthly objective.

What you have to keep in mind is the objective. The objective drives everything and explains everything, so do you understand man’s objective? (go beyond “glorifying God” since a tree glorifies God by being a tree).

God being the epitome of “Love” is totally unselfish, so God is doing or allowing all He can to help those that are just willing to at least accept His help fulfill their earthly objective. That everything includes Christ going to the cross, tragedies of all kinds, satan roaming the earth, death, hell and humans to sin.

So the first question is what is the objective?

1Em1Esseswife · #24 4th June 2012, 07:30 PM

So the first question is what is the objective?

Ummmm..... could it be for His glory?

ROMANS 9
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up , that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

ISAIAH 43
7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

Foxie · #25 5th June 2012, 04:50 AM

So to recap what we have so far:
a) When Jesus addressed the crowd and referred to 'some standing her', he was actually talking to ghost/spirits and not the crowd. Why is it then that I do not read about Jesus addressing 'ghosts' anywhere else in the Bible?

b) It is not that God cannot defeat Satan. It is simply that God and the world needs Satan for some vague and obscure reasons which are beyond me. Why would anyone need Satan, the epitome of all Evil? This question remains unanswered.

c) The issue of a 1000 years being as a day to Jesus. Jesus was addressing mere mortals when he made the statement. Why on earth would he feel the need to speak in riddles? Psalm 90:40 is about Moses singing God's praises in a prayer. Neither God nor Jesus ever made such a statement.

So where does that leave me? If I choose to believe the actual words of Jesus as opposed to some vague, obscure interpretations thereof, am I going to burn in hell?

squint · #26 5th June 2012, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by Foxie

So to recap what we have so far:
a) When Jesus addressed the crowd and referred to 'some standing her', he was actually talking to ghost/spirits and not the crowd. Why is it then that I do not read about Jesus addressing 'ghosts' anywhere else in the Bible?

Surely you jest. Jesus 'dealt with' demonic entities on nearly every page of the New Testament Gospels and did so because they were IN MAN.

Those entities were the 'unseen' cause of Israel's captivity and why Jesus sought to divide them from that working FIRST as His Word came first to them.

If you missed this blazingly open fact in the scriptures what can I say? Maybe a re-read?

b) It is not that God cannot defeat Satan. It is simply that God and the world needs Satan for some vague and obscure reasons which are beyond me. Why would anyone need Satan, the epitome of all Evil? This question remains unanswered.

This point has been acknowledged in this thread as well. Satan serves Gods Purposes.

c) The issue of a 1000 years being as a day to Jesus. Jesus was addressing mere mortals when he made the statement. Why on earth would he feel the need to speak in riddles? Psalm 90:40 is about Moses singing God's praises in a prayer. Neither God nor Jesus ever made such a statement.

Jesus spoke in 'parables' to convey 'unseen' matters. What are 'unseen' matters? Spiritual matters. Those are correlated teachings that point to matters intangible on two basic sides of the ledgers of our current reality...called...good and evil, neither of which are tangible enterprises.

They start from 'within.'

So where does that leave me? If I choose to believe the actual words of Jesus as opposed to some vague, obscure interpretations thereof, am I going to burn in hell?

Uh, no. We all seek our Perfect Reflection. It is reasonable to assume that

A. No two believers are going to have identical reflections because God formed us all uniquely.

B. We look to our Perfect Reflection which can only come from Him Alone. Thankfully it is a process over time.

It's somewhat problematic to stand before Perfection in our current state of being. rub rub rub

enjoy!

squint

LittleLambofJesus · #27 5th June 2012, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by Foxie

Matthew 24:36: “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.” (Also Mark 25:13)

I cannot, however, recall a single church sermon that I have attended where Matthew 24:34 (a mere two verses before the above) was mentioned, let alone addressed.

Matthew 24:34: “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. (Also Mark 13:30 and Luke 21:32)

Jesus explicitly says that it was going to happen within that specific generation. Read the two verses together in context and it is very clear that Jesus meant that God alone knows the day and the hour, but that specific day and hour was to occur within that generation. After repeatedly questioning the clerics about this, the most common answer was that it would depend on one’s definition of a generation. A generation to Jesus may not be what we understand a generation to be. In most cases, they would then quote some vague so-called prophecies to justify their explanation.........

Luke 21 appears to specifically state the wrath would come upon the people He was addressing, another words, the Jews of Judea. Keeping in mind Jesus was the Jew's Passover Lamb

Also, note Revelation 6:16

Luke 21:23 "Woe yet to the-ones in belly having, and to those giving suck in those the Days.
For shall be great necessity/anagkh <318> on the Land and wrath in the People, this/toutw <5129>;

Reve 6:16 And they are saying to the mountains and to the rocks "be falling on us! and hide us! from Face of the One sitting upon the Throne,
and from the wrath of the Lamb"
[Hosea 10:8/Luke 23:30]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7392923-39/#post52748967
How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled

Strong in Him · #28 5th June 2012, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Foxie

The most important event in the Christian calendar is undoubtedly the Second Coming. Without the promise of an afterlife, where we can blissfully exist in a realm without sin or evil for an eternity if we live according to certain rules, and without the fear of burning in hell for an eternity if we don’t, I do not believe that Christianity would have survived as long as it has.

I think it would.
Being a Christian is all about what God has done for us in Christ; how he showed his great love for us, desire to reconcile him to himself and adopt us as his children by sending Jesus who offered his life so that this might happen.
Going to heaven isn't a matter of keeping the rules; and those who are sent to hell go there because of their wilful and delliberate rejection of God and his free gift of eternal life - God honours, after death, the choiceds that they made in life.

Originally Posted by Foxie

The Second Coming offers a very attractive way around both these horrors.

Jesus is returning as king, to bring in the fulness of the kingdom and establish his reign - not so that some people might be spared death. No one need be afraid of death now - Jesus has conquered it, and if people are reallky scared of the thought of hell, there are plenty of people around to tell them how to get to heaven.

Originally Posted by Foxie

But how genuine is this promise of the Second Coming and the afterlife?

100%. Jesus is coming back - he said so.

Originally Posted by Foxie

Matthew 24:34: “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. (Also Mark 13:30 and Luke 21:32)

Jesus explicitly says that it was going to happen within that specific generation. Read the two verses together in context and it is very clear that Jesus meant that God alone knows the day and the hour, but that specific day and hour was to occur within that generation.

In the NIV there is a footnote for verse 34 which says, "or race". IE, the Jewish race, nation, would not pass away befrore all these things happened.

Originally Posted by Foxie

I would then remind them of Matthew 16:28 (Also Mark 9:1 and Luke 9:27) where Jesus very clearly states that it will happen in the lifetime of some of those present where he made the statement.

Matthew 16:28: “Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.”

Mark - the first Gospel to be written and which was used by both Matthew and Luke when they wrote their Gospels - says, "I tell you the truth, some who are stabnding here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power."
Jesus proclaimed the kingdom when he began his ministry, (Mark 1:15), and it began to come in when Jesus, the king, was on earth. I think Mark 1:9 is a reference to the resurrection - Jesus finished his work on the cross and was raised from the dead 3 days later - with power to affirm and confirm that he was who he had said he was. The disciples received power when the Holy Spirit came upon them and the church was born, but it was the resurrection that changed their lives, gave them hope and showed them who Jesus was, and had been.

Originally Posted by Foxie

In Matthew 10:23 we read that Jesus sends his disciples off to go and preach in the cities of Israel, but tells them to hurry because the Son of Man will come before they had time to visit all the cities.

Matthew 10:23: “When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.”

It is clear to me that Jesus is talking about something different from verse 17 onwards.

Verses 10-16 describe how the disciples were sent out to the neighbouring villages with the message of the kingdom. I don't know how long they were to spend doing this, but at some point they returned to Jesus and continued with him in the rest of his ministry.
So his words about being handed over to the synagogues, brought before kings, being inspired what to say by the Holy Spirit (who had not been given at that point), and being hated by all men because of Jesus, did not apply to them on that particular mission. Jesus was still with people - healing, teaching and popular with many. Those words can only refer to a much later event - a time when they WOULD be persecuted for the Gospel.
As for going to all cities; DID the disciples preach the Gospel everywhere in Israel before they were persecuted and scattered abroad? Has the whole of Israel, even now, heard the Gospel? (I'm asking because I don't know.)

Originally Posted by Foxie

From the above I believe that it is safe to assume that the Second Coming was supposed to have happened in the first century.

I don't think it's safe to assume anything - certainly not when we're talking about spiritual matters; the ways of God and his plan. He is infinite, we are finite; his ways are higher than our ways and his thoughts higher than ours.

Originally Posted by Foxie

Fact is it did not.

The disciples did expect Jesus to return in their lifetime. The Gospels were written when it seemed clear that this might not happen and that if it didn't, future generations (however many there might be) needed to know about Jesus' life, death and salvation.

Originally Posted by Foxie

I believe that Christianity needs Satan as much as it needs God in order to exist. They simply cannot afford that God defeats Satan. An end to the struggle between Good and Evil will mean the end of the role of the Church. As a result 1) the promise of the Second Coming and 2) Satan must be kept very much alive at all cost for the Church to survive.

No I don't believe that.

Lucifer (another name for Satan) was created as an angel of light - he was good once. But he rebelled and got thrown out of heaven, tempted Adam and Eve to disobey God and sin entered the world. Adam and Eve actually DID die that day - spiritually. Their relationship with God was now broken. Even in Genesis 4 we read of Cain and Abel brining offerings, or sacrifices, to the Lord. Much later, we are told that the Lord gave the law to Moses with instructions about offering sacrifices for sin. Eventually he sent Jesus - a once and for all offering for the sin of the world.
Jesus HAS defeated Satan; whoever believes in Jesus, the Way the Truth and the Life, and accepts the sacrfice that he nmade for them, HAS eternal life, will never be snatched from God's hand, HAS been reconciled to God and will be with him forever.

Satan is in the world, the author of all sin, evil, wickedness, disease etc. Satan does not want people to come to Jesus, be healed, restored, forgiven, have eternal life and learn that he, the devil, has been defeated. He can still make people's lives hell while they are alive, but he cannot separate us from the love of God which is ours in Christ (Rom 8:38-39). He can, and sadly does, try every trick he knows to keep people from hearing about, and accepting, this wonderful God. So, as Paul says, there is spiritual warfare.

We don't NEED Satan, I for one would be very glad to see him get his just desserts and as soon as possible. But I believe the Lord delays Jesus' return to give as many people as possible the chance to hear the Gospel and accept his Son.
But the ending is certain - and we know what that will be!!

bling · #29 5th June 2012, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by Foxie

So to recap what we have so far:

b) It is not that God cannot defeat Satan. It is simply that God and the world needs Satan for some vague and obscure reasons which are beyond me. Why would anyone need Satan, the epitome of all Evil? This question remains unanswered.

Thank you for at least reading: “It is simply that God and the world needs Satan…”. I wanted you to address the question about the “objective” first?

First off realize: Sin is not the problem (even if unforgiven is a huge problem).

Not ever sinning is not man’s objective while here on earth.

Even though God does not like sin or want us to sin, sin has purpose and is needed by all mature adults.

Satan (the tempter) is a spiritual being the humans with only human abilities cannot stand against all the time so we all sin.

There are things God will not directly do, but will allow satan to do in order to benefit willing humans in the long run. You can see this in the way God “played” satan to get satan to bring lots of tragedies upon Job in order to help Job in the end.

squint · #30 5th June 2012, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by bling

Thank you for at least reading: “It is simply that God and the world needs Satan…”. I wanted you to address the question about the “objective” first?

First off realize: Sin is not the problem (even if unforgiven is a huge problem).

Not ever sinning is not man’s objective while here on earth.

Even though God does not like sin or want us to sin, sin has purpose and is needed by all mature adults.

Satan (the tempter) is a spiritual being the humans with only human abilities cannot stand against all the time so we all sin.

There are things God will not directly do, but will allow satan to do in order to benefit willing humans in the long run. You can see this in the way God “played” satan to get satan to bring lots of tragedies upon Job in order to help Job in the end.

I really enjoy seeing honesty about these matters. Just excellent.

God Himself 'exercises' long suffering when putting up with that anti-spiritual character and in this Is A Testimony to His Divine Patience and 'long suffering.'

A Divine Quality of Love.

It would be very easy for God just to take the whole thing down and apart and be over with it. But these matters are constructed for PERFECT ENDS which only He can bring about.

And in this, we have 'faith' in Him through Him for that to transpire.

s