Unorthodox TheologyA forum to discuss/debate theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity (eg. Full Preterism, Unitarianism)
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I read the OP's question. A better question, if the death of Christ was for the forgiveness of our sins, what happened to them when He came back to life?
this must be the day for expounding bizarre misunderstandings of scripture which in fact are very revealing once understood... here we go again then
Jesus was no 'whipping boy' ...Jesus died simply to show there was no need to fear death, that resurrection to the flesh is CERTAIN for all, that none is left in hell [because of Love's requirement to save all men from themselves]
so how do sins disappear ? - TWO ways ... one is by repentance, to stop sinning , showing that one has learned to Love ,god refuses to dwell on past sin once it stops...[contrary to what sinners paradoxically teach sinners]
the second way is death , wages of sin paid in full simply by death :-
Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
so endlessness of being is a GIFT... no-one can earn it... for most folks they are freed from sin by death, receive baptism of the spirit for free after resurrection [Joel 2:28] all they need for salvation then is to perfect Love in the kingdom come of Jesus the King of kings and high priest there...
this then is Jesus' contribution, to create the kingdom come in the righteous new earth by saving FIRST the FEW saints of this earth who in turn create and run the kingdom come in the new earth...
to do so entailed becoming king of Israel , the Christ, the Messiah, because the priests and kings of the kingdom are all of Israel [although no-one today knows who are Israel and who within Israel are to be the remnant 144,000 taken at Jesus return to rule and minister later to billions of resurrected sinners ... all released from hell and death free from sin and immediately baptised of the spirit as promised by God [joel 2:28] to know all truth of God and the future [John 16:13]
so there we have it, that is how Jesus gets rid of the sins of all men and saves everyone eventually... as he says, all will bow to him, accept his commandment to Love, no longer choosing unloving sin...
why does it work? - because of the power of Love to convict men to stay Loving [because being Loving makes folks happy, fulfilled, sharing, caring whole, just, peaceful, truthful, ONE with God ... its not a mystery , unlike what sinners preach worldwide which simply makes no sense at all ... but then Jesus does warn us about the false Christ who MUST come first before Jesus can return...
That's a quite amusing paradox by misunderstanding akin to countless amny generated by taking words to have meaning when applied to god when they only apply to apparent reality ['to 'physicality' , to creation , not thus to the Spirit of endless creation of that which ends...]
bizarrely too the same resolution applies as to resolving the senseless idea of 'trinity' about which God understandably says nothing...
God is spirit which is ONE, undivided , indivisibly whole , just one endless being... God does not divide into the spirits of men made in His image [which is spirit, not flesh we see] ...so. like scripture says, Jesus and God are ONE, not two... because the spirit of Jesus is the spirit of God ...the reaity is the spirit because the spirit is what creates, the spirit is endless, the creation ends.. thus all division ends ...all spirits of men merge into ONE at the end of time...and i fact they never were separate, separation was only a temporary illusion of creation , to male seem possible what for God is not possible, to give understanding of division when God cannot literally divide....
Aside from any philosophical argument, The plain language of the bible supports annihilationism.
"whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life"
"the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life"
"They will be punished with everlasting destruction"
"He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death"
"you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die"
"The soul who sins is the one who will die"
"the way of the wicked will perish"
And the bible is not "wrong" as some people erroneously believe.
And the bible is not "wrong" as some people erroneously believe.
After 'the second death':
NASB
10And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
__________________ Belief of Hell is not a requirement for residency.
Honestly it sounds like something Satan would say, that all will be saved.
your mistaken impression then, but why would you have it ? :-
1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
I shall say it now: please do not post here if you do not believe in the Trinity. This is merely for those who believe in the Trinity and either believe in, or are investigating the doctrine of annihilationism. If you have opposing views to either of these doctrines, you may still post, but please don't debate about the Trinity as we know it: "Father, Son, Holy Spirit: co-eternal, co-existent, co-distinct, consubstantial."
Basically, if Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was sacrificed for our sake on the cross, what exactly happened to Him? If He took the sins of all of those who'd be saved by God, and annihilationism is true, then it is logical to say that as penalty for all the sin He took on Himself, that the Son "should" have gotten annihilated. Which would mean, at least for a moment, the Son ceased to exist. Which either means the Trinity is not true (which we're assuming it is), or annihilation isn't true.
Or it means that your definition of what is paid in the 2nd death is not true.
in Rev 14:10-11 they are "tormented in fire and brimstone". One person cannot be annihilated a zillion times by definition. It is not the ceasing to suffer that is the "payment" it is the suffering that the wicked pay in the lake of fire PRIOR to "being destroyed BOTH body and SOUL in fiery hell" Matt 10:28 that is the "payment".
Jesus endured supernatural suffering in Gethsemane and on the cross. That super natural torment and suffering was that which is owed by each person for each sin.
In fact the very fact that there is FINITE suffering and torment - owed for FINITE and specific sin - makes it possible to then ACCUMULATE all of that debt and place it on one person.
Thus the very concept of subtitutionary atoning sacrifice for ALL of sin for all mankind in all of time - demands FINITE torment and suffering owed for each real sin.
Honestly it sounds like something Satan would say, that all will be saved.
Indeed that is wrong. But one reason that some Calvinists will argue that this is the lot of the Arminians - is that they (all Calvinists and many Arminians as well) do not understand the Bible concept of Atonement as God teaches it in Lev 16.
Honestly it sounds like something Satan would say, that all will be saved.
Saying what you "think" Satan would say is no different than saying what you think God would say.
Thinking without truth revealed from the Holy Spirit is just that.............a thought. Even the devil can appear as an angel of light. And Satan uses the Bible scriptures to confuse us................and it works!
If a man deciphers a verse one way and has a huge following and another man deciphers it differently with as huge a following, then how do you know who is right? The one who yells the loudest? The protester? The accuser of blasphemy?
Is there a possibility you are wrong? No, because you hide behind scripture and will blame it on the Bible if you are found to be accountable.
The Bible is a reference and the Holy Spirit teaches truth. It is not always found in the NT and OT. There are messages the Holy Spirit teaches me everyday that I cannot find in the Bible and it continues to make me grow in Gods grace and learn more of him.
It has been a long road for me (62 yo) and I thank God daily for it. And I see most of the debates on this thread and think "I used to be that way, trying to make others see the light the way I saw it", after all, isn't that what God wanted me to do?
But the more the Holy Spirit talked with me in prayer, the more I realized that the most important thing was to put my efforts into opening my mind more and letting the Spirit teach me rather than men (church).
I am responsible for my own soul and have no one else to blame but me if I lose it. And searching myself, I found that my beliefs had been from being raised in a Nazarene church. And I would have died for that doctrine. But now I feel safer and serene in the knowing of spiritual life way beyond anything I had back then. And it never came from man or church. But from the Holy Spirit.
So when Jesus says "let him who has ears hear", we all have ears.
But there are special messages that only the Holy Spirit will let you hear and common men will not understand and argue over.
Last edited by Phantasman; 6th June 2012 at 09:40 PM.
Saying what you "think" Satan would say is no different than saying what think God would say.
Thinking without truth revealed from the Holy Spirit is just that.............a thought. Even the devil can appear as an angel of light. And Satan uses the Bible scriptures to confuse us................and it works!
If a man deciphers a verse one way and has a huge following and another man deciphers it differently with as huge a following, then how do you know who is right? The one who yells the loudest? The protester? The accuser of blasphemy?
Is there a possibility you are wrong? No, because you hide behind scripture and will blame it on the Bible if you are found to be accountable.
The Bible is a reference and the Holy Spirit teaches truth. It is not always found in the NT and OT. There are messages the Holy Spirit teaches me everyday that I cannot find in the Bible and it continues to make me grow in Gods grace and learn more of him.
It has been a long road for me (62 yo) and I thank God daily for it. And I see most of the debates on this thread and think "I used to be that way, trying to make others see the light the way I saw it", after all, isn't that what God wanted me to do?
But the more the Holy Spirit talked with me in prayer, the more I realized that the most important thing was to put my efforts into opening my mind more and letting the Spirit teach me rather than men (church).
I am responsible for my own soul and have no one else to blame but me if I lose it. And searching myself, I found that my beliefs had been from being raised in a Nazarene church. And I would have died for that doctrine. But now I feel safer and serene in the knowing of spiritual life way beyond anything I had back then. And it never came from man or church. But from the Holy Spirit.
So when Jesus says "let him who has ears hear", we all have ears.
But there are special messages that only the Holy Spirit will let you hear and common men will not understand and argue over.
Awesome! ... thank God for this affirmation of the central meaning of His scripture
The [poorly translated ,edited , abridged copies of] scripture which serve as a reference point for discussion here are used by Satan's mass churches of sinners to deceive billions who never even read that God ALLOWS the delusion of the masses now because neither they are READY to freely CHOOSE Love instead of sin nor the kingdom is this readied to help save them from themselves, their proneness to accepting Satan's temptations to sin and so mess up others and their own lives [and in fact eventually destroy this earth, our transient 'home' as sinful 'spoiled kids' rebelling against the Truth that Love is best for everyone as God states]
What the scripture DOES CLEARLY state many ways, many times, is that the first step for man toward knowing God, the FOUNDATION of God, is to STOP sinning :-
2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
this is FUNDAMENTAL then but unpopular !!
so mass religion of sinners teaches AGAINST the scripture , teaches that continual sin of the masses is forgiven continually ... in effect sinners go on sinning all their lives, die sinners, still believing they do not have to Love all men and thus show their Love of God to even begin the three baptisms before being saved :-
Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
most folks have no idea that water baptism means DYING to sin, ceasing to sin [else past sins cannot be forgiven if one refuses to STOP ,,, clearl one has NOT repented if one sins again :-
Ezek 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
so most FAIL at the first baptism, fail to repent fully and stop sinning, so their sins cannot be forgiven because they still follow sin, not Love... still don't obey God, so Jesus is not their Lord no matter what they say, because one does not disobey one's 'lord' if he is one's lord...
thus most never receive spirit baptism in THIS life because they refuse to Love, refuse to stop sinning [and sin is unloving abuse of others and oneself , simply unacceptable to anyone , even oneself as a whole person ... but folks deny their conscience, their heart of Love, their spirit, theiur mind in order to sin and destroy themselves and others - madness really - Matt 7:13]
anyway after spirit baptism to know all Truth [John 16:13] which will come to all in the next life [Joel 2:28] aftre death frees all who die sinners from sin , wages of sin paid in full, no further punishment than their miserable life without God :-
Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
...
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death
but the gift of God is eternal life
through Jesus Christ
our Lord.
very few then even bother to read of the THIRD baptism [of 'fire'] , still fewer trouble to understand the 'fire' of God's Truth that will burn like a pain of conscience withing every sinner until they stop and choose Love freely because sin just doesn't work and God reminds us continually that we hurt ourselves and others by any sin...
saints then must PROVE their Love to God's satisfaction before translation to spirit free of death [salvation] ... Satan's explicit task then is to tempt saints and see if they can be induced to sin by lies about God, lies about pleasure, lies about what we are... any deception to see whom they believe, God within by spirit baptism or Satan from the world...
It is thus a straightforward process, salvation, but the FIRST step is by the man, to decide when he has hag enough of the misery sin brings him and those around him , the emptiness, unfulfilment, to decide if he will yet try Love instead, become a whole being instead of a divided conflicted one...
for now most choose sin and thus are destroyed [matt 7:13] but a few [matt 7:14, Jude 1:14] choose Love and are perfected in love by baptism of fire ---and these will rule and minster under Jesus in his kingdom come after mankind finishes destroying this earth with sin and God creates the new earth for salvation of countless many more [Rev 7:9-10]...
2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
so we see mass religion of sinners has that wrong already too... and cannot offer spirit baptism because God will not baptise any sinner until he stops sinning in full repentance of all his sins...
so scripture has its use in helping men decide to stop sinning, change to Love , so God can come within and help considerably with the perfection of Love and defeating Satan's wiles, but religion of sinners gets in the way of countless many by offering them salvation in exchange for weekly payments to sinner priests for divided teachings of sinners that are so very different not only from scripture but from what God teaches ALL saints in spirit baptism [without which none can enter the kingdom of God]
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
anyone who is baptised of the spirit receives all truth in life from God, not from men, not from scripture, not from saints even ... John 16:13 ... ALL truth long before death to allow TIME for baptism of 'fire', the perfection of Love in life's trials...
1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
NOTE that the 'faith ' here is not faith in sinners' teachings in mass religion, but faith in Love , for God is Love, not the delusions taught in mass churches of divided sinners ...
1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
sinners then CANNOT know God , cannot be baptised of His spirit , until the STOP sinning, choose Love instead :-
1 John 4:16 ... God is love
and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Last edited by strangertoo; 6th June 2012 at 10:36 AM.
Reason: How to get saved ? ....
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