| Christian Apologetics A forum to discuss the systematic defense of the Christian belief system with other Christians. |
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1st June 2012, 10:17 PM
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Reps: 10 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by WinBySurrender  That's what you would like to think. That apparently is what a lot of people on this board would like to think. Ninety percent certainty that God is who He says He is is the same thing as no certainty at all. If you can't put 100% of your trust in Jesus Christ, you are one your own.And so is the other. That's what you all fail to realize.Again, what you would like to think. You would like to see this as the optimist sees the glass that has water up to the halfway point. It's half full, the optimist says. But with faith in Christ, half full or even 90% full is the same thing as empty. You're never going to see it that way as long as you think that partial faith is sufficient. Take heed. It is not. Partial faith is no faith, just like partial truth is still a whole lie.
Ah - now I see where the confusion is winBy.
The question is not about 100% faith, but about 100% certainty that the God of the Bible exists.
I think we all agree that if the Bible is true, then God is who he says he is and I would imagine that any one who did not have 100 % faith would be crazy.
What you keep missing,mhowever, is that people are saying - is there some chance that the God of the Bible does not exist and that the Bible is man-made. Clearly this is a logical possibility.
But you are in effect saying, it us not possible at all because the Bible says it isn't. You are caught up in circular reasoning - "How do I know the Bible is true? Because the Bible tells me so!".
Until you can break free of that reasoning you will never understand the debate here.
Thanks,
Peter  |
1st June 2012, 10:23 PM
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Reps: 28,340,887,202,759,332 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by Peter Carlington Let's talk about God as described in the Bible .
How sure are you that This God exists?
Depends on whose "Bible" we're talking about. There are many theologies (some of which dominate these boards, it seems) about which I would say I am pretty confident that there is 10% chance that the God of their interpretation exists (and I shudder at those odds!). For others, I would be more confident.
But if I'm being really honest and true to my own understanding of faith, I would argue that I have 0% confidence. My belief in God is not one of confidence based in some manner of proofs, but rather the all-in desperation of one searching in the darkness for that which cannot be proven. It is through despairing of our own abilities to muster up "confidence" enough to believe where faith is truly formed. It is in this embrace of the darkness of doubt where the illuminating mercy of divine truth is ultimately found.
Last edited by rogueapologist; 1st June 2012 at 10:29 PM.
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1st June 2012, 10:43 PM
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Reps: 48,079,557,500,619,768 (power: 48,079,557,500,626) | | | While I agree with you, Peter, I am sure WinBy quite understands this debate- he has told us as much. He seems quite cognizant of the absolutism of his beliefs. You can lead a horse, as they say.
What I would like him to comment on is the necessary path of belief he treads by taking these views. He says:
"Ninety percent certainty that God is who He says He is is the same thing as no certainty at all. If you can't put 100% of your trust in Jesus Christ, you are one your own."
First- the faculties of mind and spirit are not quantifiable. We speak of them using percentiles and numerals but these are terms of simplification. Once we begin to get to the root of the matter, these absolute terms must be discarded.
Secondly, he's throwing down quite a heavy curtain here. The divide it makes is clear, though more akin to glass or cheap plastic. On one side, he posits, are those with 100% certainty of God- on the other, 90% or less. Or maybe, 95%? What about 98%? Perhaps we should inquire...my eternal soul is on the line, after all. 99%? What about 99.99%?
Again, as I say, absolutism. The biggest impediment to rational thinking. |
1st June 2012, 10:50 PM
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Reps: 359,274,841,238,434,688 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by Peter Carlington Ah - now I see where the confusion is winBy.
No, you don't because this ... Originally Posted by Peter Carlington The question is not about 100% faith, but about 100% certainty that the God of the Bible exists.
... is the same issue, not two separate ones. To have 100% certainty that God exists, one must have 100% faith in God, through Christ Jesus. If you continue to see these issues as separate, you will never see that your view that you can have less than 100% certainty that God exists means you have no faith at all! Faith and certainty are the same thing!Hebrews 11 (NASB)1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Originally Posted by Peter Carlington What you keep missing,mhowever, is that people are saying - is there some chance that the God of the Bible does not exist and that the Bible is man-made. Clearly this is a logical possibility.
I'm not missing that at all. I'm telling you you're wrong! There is absolutely no chance the God of the Bible does not exist, and if you have doubt, you have no faith in God! It's that simple. If one is not 100% confident that the God of the Bible exists, that one is not a believer in Christ. Originally Posted by Danyc First- the faculties of mind and spirit are not quantifiable. We speak of them using percentiles and numerals but these are terms of simplification. Once we begin to get to the root of the matter, these absolute terms must be discarded.
True. But the faculties of the mind and spirit are not involved. It is the convicting evidence of the Holy Spirit that convinces us, with 100% certainty. Originally Posted by Danyc Again, as I say, absolutism. The biggest impediment to rational thinking.
And that's the other problem. Thinking God is rational.
I Corinthians 1 (NASB)
18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
Certainty is not a product of the mind or the human spirit. It is the power of God. |
1st June 2012, 11:09 PM
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1st June 2012, 11:28 PM
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Reps: 48,079,557,500,619,768 (power: 48,079,557,500,626) | | Originally Posted by WinBySurrender Certainty is not a product of the mind
I've lived to read it written.
If you won't acknowledge the role our mind plays in everything we've talked about here, I'm not sure I have anything else to say.
Absolutism contributes little more to the world than a signpost detailing the questionable integrity of the nearest bridge. |
1st June 2012, 11:46 PM
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Reps: 359,274,841,238,434,688 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by Danyc I've lived to read it written.
If you won't acknowledge the role our mind plays in everything we've talked about here, I'm not sure I have anything else to say. Romans 8 (NASB)
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. [Emphasis added]
It is obvious that man cannot seek God on his own. We have a depraved natural mind that rejects the concept of God and rejects God outright, as Paul and the other apostles constantly remind us. Therefore, how do you propose that this depraved natural mind could have any possible role in your salvation?
Originally Posted by Danyc Absolutism contributes little more to the world than a signpost detailing the questionable integrity of the nearest bridge.
This is the view that has opened the door wide for there to be "other paths to God" and "more than one way to salvation." Utter, complete and total nonsense. |
2nd June 2012, 12:08 AM
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2nd June 2012, 07:26 AM
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Reps: 96,684,101,005,750,448 (power: 96,684,101,005,752) | | Originally Posted by Danyc An addendum to my tirade on absolutes- the only absolute is that there are none.
Which is terribly inconsistent. The only things that are "opinion" and are therefore "relative" is whether you like something or not.
Truth is truth. Simple logic says that something cannot be both true and not true at the same time when dealing with the same context.
If I believe that the sky is blue, and you believe it is green one of us is wrong.
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Fight heresy not because you want to merely inform, and not to expose someone as not being as intelligent as you in understanding biblical doctrine, but fight heresy because it puts God's character at stake. For the fallen angels minister unto men the slander of God's holy and righteous name.
Kyrie, ignis divine, eleison
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2nd June 2012, 07:31 AM
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Reps: 749,634,420,010,169,216 (power: 749,634,420,010,177) | | Originally Posted by CalledOutOne If I believe that the sky is blue, and you believe it is green one of us is wrong.
That's a very bad example of what you're talking about I think, relies far too much on individuals being able to sense something as the same, and could very well boil down to sorites paradox if one looks at it hard enough
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Now accept one who is weak in faith, but not for disputes over opinions. Who are you who judge another’s servant? Let each man be fully assured in his own mind. For none of us lives to himself, and none dies to himself. For if we live, we live to the Lord. Or if we die, we die to the Lord. If therefore we live or die, we are the Lord’s. For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living. | | |
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