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2nd June 2012, 08:09 PM
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Reps: 5,630,246,762,927,838,208 (power: 5,630,246,762,927,854) | | Originally Posted by Zazal  That is merely a Jewish tradition that is without foundation because the point about Melchizedek is that he just appears on the scene with no back-ground info and certainly no lineage. We know Shem's geneology.
Merely?
Where does it say in Genesis that he had no background?
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1Give thanks to the Lord, for He is good! For His mercy endures forever.
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2 Let Israel now say, "His mercy endures forever."
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3 Let the House of Aaronnow say, "His mercy endures forever."
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4 Let those who fear the L-RD now say, "His mercy endures forever."
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2nd June 2012, 08:12 PM
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Reps: 524,065,297,457,272,832 (power: 524,065,297,457,276) | | Originally Posted by TorahxKeeper
Also by doing this Yeshua was declaring His royal priest hood, which gave him the authority to be a sacrifice outside the Temple, which would not require the Levitical priesthood to preform.
His declaration of the Melchizedek Priesthood and that Kingship is necessary for Yeshua to return as Reining King to reclaim his Throne.
We too are of this Royal priesthood. not after the Levitical order but by the order of Melchizedek.
Hi,
Are you trying to suggest we are also priests after the Melchizedek priesthood?
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G-d said to Abram...Gen 17:6 “I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. 7 “I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be G-d to you and to your descendants after you. 8“I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their G-d.” |
2nd June 2012, 08:17 PM
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Reps: 524,065,297,457,272,832 (power: 524,065,297,457,276) | | Originally Posted by Lulav Merely?
Where does it say in Genesis that he had no background?
Merely...as in it is not authoritative because it is associated with Jewish myths and fables which abound in literature connected with Torah.
Who says it is found in Genesis?...try Hebrews 7:3Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.
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G-d said to Abram...Gen 17:6 “I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. 7 “I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be G-d to you and to your descendants after you. 8“I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their G-d.” |
2nd June 2012, 08:29 PM
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Reps: 5,630,246,762,927,838,208 (power: 5,630,246,762,927,854) | | Originally Posted by Zazal Merely...as in it is not authoritative because it is associated with Jewish myths and fables which abound in literature connected with Torah.
Who says it is found in Genesis?...try Hebrews 7:3Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.
I'm asking for the reference in Genesis, in the Torah where it says this, not in Hebrews.
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1Give thanks to the Lord, for He is good! For His mercy endures forever.
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2 Let Israel now say, "His mercy endures forever."
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3 Let the House of Aaronnow say, "His mercy endures forever."
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4 Let those who fear the L-RD now say, "His mercy endures forever."
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2nd June 2012, 08:36 PM
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Reps: 524,065,297,457,272,832 (power: 524,065,297,457,276) | | Originally Posted by Zazal Merely...as in it is not authoritative because it is associated with Jewish myths and fables which abound in literature connected with Torah.
Who says it is found in Genesis?...try Hebrews 7:3Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.
I'm asking for the reference in Genesis, in the Torah where it says this, not in Hebrews. Then I will have to disappoint you as there is no reference in Genesis.
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G-d said to Abram...Gen 17:6 “I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. 7 “I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be G-d to you and to your descendants after you. 8“I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their G-d.” |
2nd June 2012, 08:58 PM
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Reps: 5,630,246,762,927,838,208 (power: 5,630,246,762,927,854) | | Originally Posted by Zazal Then I will have to disappoint you as there is no reference in Genesis.
Exactly.
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1Give thanks to the Lord, for He is good! For His mercy endures forever.
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2 Let Israel now say, "His mercy endures forever."
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3 Let the House of Aaronnow say, "His mercy endures forever."
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4 Let those who fear the L-RD now say, "His mercy endures forever."
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3rd June 2012, 01:20 AM
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Reps: 2,377,799,805,858,498,048 (power: 2,377,799,805,858,514) | | Originally Posted by Lulav Yeshua lived by the Law of Moses, handed down to him by his Father. There was no 'demanding' it was a service for the people to be right before G-d.
.
As the Lord asking for something to be done on their part as a means of being right with Him--with the Lord setting the rules for how he wanted the people to approach Him if they wanted to be clean--demand is more than accurate, IMHO. The Lord did not need to have sacrifices...but as it concerns relationships, it was not an option for the people not to bring them if they wanted to connect with Him. Of course, that can also be an issue of semantics since sacrifices in/of themselves were never able to cleanse people of their sins.....and there was always the dynamic of what sacrifices symbolized when it came to what they poitned to.
As a Jew, Jesus must have kept the Law of Moses perfectly. Yet that same law required all Jews to keep the Passover celebration ( (Exodus 12:47 ). The Gospels specifically mention Jesus keeping three Passover feasts in Jerusalem....even as a boy (Luke 2:41-51). In order to keep the feast, the participants were given roasted lamb, bitter herbs, and unleavened bread to eat (Exodus 12:3-4). The entire lamb had to be eaten during the feast. If there were any leftovers, they had to be burned (Exodus 12:10). If Jesus did not eat the lamb, he would have been violating the Law and could have been accused of sin ( Numbers 9:10-13 ). The New Testament records that Jesus did eat the Passover feast, which would include the eating of the roasted lamb (Luke 22:14-15).
If his blood substituted for the blood of all animals how does that save us?
If His blood was not enough to atone for the sins of all mankind, it was shed needlessly for others since animal sacrifice would have been sufficient. The animal sacrifices covered sins rather than removed them in the sense that Christ had His blood remove sins.
Not all animal sacrifices were for sin, in fact there were more for other reasons than the ones for sin. Many were offerings to the L-RD, there was also the sacrifices of the first born, these were used as food for the Priests who served the L-RD in his temple.
The male children were redeemed, but the male (clean)animals were not
More than agree, although nothing has been said counter to that reality and I've actually noted such on a number of occasions when pointing out the ways others did sacrifices as a means of giving thanks unto the Lord...even after the Resurrection of Yeshua. More shared before in older discussions (i.e. # 1, # 2, # 25 , etc). Not according to what Paul and others did (Acts 18:18, Acts 21, etc) when they still sacrificed/did things that required such....the Nazarite vow being the most notable in what it required with sacrifices (Numbers 6). If one has an issue with sacrifices, they need to take it up with Paul since he/others did so still.. ..both with animals AND with things such as grain/fruit offerings ( Nehemiah 10:36-38, Leviticus 19:23-25, Genesis 4:2-4, etc )...both of which could be offered in THANKSGIVING rather than for Atonement of sins (which is done by Christ).
Ancient Israel, as a nation, was required to make sacrifices to atone for their sins. This involved an animal sacrifice made on behalf of the individual by the priests (Leviticus 7:1-5 ). However, another sacrifice is described in Leviticus 7:11-12: Leviticus 7:11-12
"This is the law of the sacrifice of peace offerings which he shall offer to the Lord: If he offers it for a thanksgiving, then he shall offer, with the sacrifice of thanksgiving, unleavened cakes mixed with oil, unleavened wafers anointed with oil, or cakes of finely blended flour mixed with oil."
This passage goes on to describe how the offering should be made and when it should be eaten. This was a separate sacrifice from the animal sacrifice for sin. It was a sacrifice that the Israelites could make simply as a thanksgiving offering to God. Later, when the nation of Israel had broken apart into the separate kingdoms of Judah and Israel, they strayed from God many times, with intervening years of repentance and obedience. When repenting and turning back to God, they would sometimes offer sacrifices of thanksgiving on the altar. Accounts of this are recorded in II Chronicles 29 and II Chronicles 33. On the second type of sacrifice mentioned in Leviticus 7, again, it is the sacrifice of thanksgiving. The Old Testament sacrifice of thanksgiving required fruit of the ground to be offered before God...although the NT sacrifice of thanksgiving requires the "fruit of our lips," ....essentially the same central idea that says God requires our thankfulness to Him for our many blessings. For Jewish Christians who were excluded from the temple community/could not make thank offerings or thank sacrifices, it was more than available for them to sacrifice via their words and praise.
There is no need for sin sacrifice since the crucifixion of Christ..for his death atoned for all the sins of mankind (Hebrews 7-10). But thank sacrifices can still be made if one wishes it--and if one wishes it to be verbal, they have that freedom as well....for again, this was allegorized within Hebrews 13:10-14 when it discusses the sacrifice of Christ for our sins, and how we can seek the coming "city"—the coming Kingdom of God—as a result of that sacrifice: "Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name." ( Hebrews 13:15 ). As Paul and other Jewish believers NEVER had issue with it as they proclaimed the Finished Work of Christ, anyone disagreeing with them is in the category of needing to consider if they understand the Work of Christ at the Cross as THEY--Jewish Disciples/Believers---understood in during the times they lived in.
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3rd June 2012, 02:20 AM
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Reps: 2,377,799,805,858,498,048 (power: 2,377,799,805,858,514) | | Originally Posted by TorahxKeeper The subject of the Passover has been debated for centuries. I am sure I won't completely figure out all the debates this event has partaken in. I do understand why it is so debated, as it is with out a doubt the most important event in ALL of human history.
Myself I have enough Faith in YAHWEH and enough understanding of HIS word that Yeshua our Messiah did all according to YAHWEH's perfect plan. His plan was perfect in Egypt as it was in Jerusalem.
Yeshua being the Lamb of YAHWEH, only needed to fulfill the Lambs part in the Commandment. Which he did. He perished at the 9th hour (3pm) at the same time the Passover lambs where being slain according to the Commandment.
By doing so he fulfilled what he said he came to do in Math.5:17
"I did not come to destroy the Torah and the Prophets, I came to fulfill"
Or more precisely he came to Complete the Torah.
There was really only one thing the Torah could not accomplish through the law, and what Yeshua could. ATONEMENT
No matter how many Bulls and goats were sacrificed they never could atone for any of our sins. Because none of those things could cover the death we were required of by YAHWEH through Adam. It was only YAHWEH's lamb that could do that.
Yeshua has re-opened the door back to the Kingdom of YAHWEH so we may be able to return to that Kingdom ..and to our King.
Now YAHWEH has given us the same choice he gave Adam by HIS grace.
Eat of the Tree of Life.....Or eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil
So take the Bread of Life and partake in it..and take the Cup of Blood for the atonement of the Death that is required of you.
Then Rejoice in the Kingdom of YAHWEH!   
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"It is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men ." ( Fredrick Douglass ) Proverbs 18:15
"The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge; the ears of the wise seek it out." Proverbs 24:3-6
5 A wise man has great power,and a man of knowledge increases strength.
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3rd June 2012, 11:29 AM
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Reps: 7,546,660,564,428,577 (power: 7,546,660,564,429) | | Originally Posted by Zazal Hi,
Are you trying to suggest we are also priests after the Melchizedek priesthood?
That is exactly what I am saying. 1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to Yahweh by Yahshua the Messiah. 1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Yeshua says we are to be a Royal Priesthood, If we were to be priest after the Levitical Priesthood it would not be of any royalty. Levites were Priest's only not Kings.
Heb 6:20 Where the forerunner is for us entered, even Yahshua, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
If Yeshua is a High Priest after the order of Melchisedec, then Rev 5 says..
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our Elohim kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
If you read Hebrews 6 - 11 You will notice how Shaul is explaining how this Priesthood came into existence.
I believe Yeshua is in fact Melchsedec as the Scripture shows
Heb 7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
King of Salem...This was the first name of the city of Jerusalem
Psa 76:2 In Salem also is his tabernacle, and his dwelling place in Zion.
King of righteousness.. Obviously Yeshua
King of Peace...again Obviously Yeshua
If you read Hebrews 6-11 you will see the essence of this,aswell as the Gospels.
Each Gospel shows us who Yeshua was and is, They are also our definition of the very Kingdom Priest we will eventually become as Saints of YAHWEH.
Mathew - He is KingMark- The Prophet Servant
Luke- He is the Son of Man
John- He is the Lord of Heaven , or the Son of YAHWEH
These show the attributes of Yeshua, and are also our guidelines of how we are to follow HIM in righteousness. Yeshua is our example, that we are to follow. He gives us HIS authority through gifts, of healing ,Prophesying, the casting out of Devils ..etc.etc.
We have the authority to baptize in HIS name for the remission of sins, that we with this athority guide those into the Kingdom. We are given HIS authority to lay hands which literally can pass the Holy Spirit to others as we utilize these gifts.
This is our authority of the Royal Priesthood, and we are to practice this.
Call them the New Covenant instruction books. You will notice that Hebrews 6-10 speak of the Kingly Priesthood, then it ties this into the New Covenant in chap.11.
Now we all know that the New Covenant has not come to it's completeness, and won't be until all is fulfilled. It will be then after the Resurrection of the Saints and the Kingdom has be reestablished that the fullness of our Royal Kingship will commence.
But until then we are commissioned by our King to represent and live a Kingdom lifestyle.
If you think about it and compare it to the Priesthood to that is in the Torah, you should see how it ties into why we are justified by Faith.
What is Faith, is it not obedience to the Word (Torah) This Faith justifies us utilizing the authority of the Royal Priesthood.
By which we are fully living a Kingdom lifestyle.
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Joh 3:5 Yahshua answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of Elohim.
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3rd June 2012, 12:27 PM
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Reps: 2,377,799,805,858,498,048 (power: 2,377,799,805,858,514) | | Originally Posted by TorahxKeeper That is exactly what I am saying.
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to Yahweh by Yahshua the Messiah.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Yeshua says we are to be a Royal Priesthood, If we were to be priest after the Levitical Priesthood it would not be of any royalty. Levites were Priest's only not Kings.
Heb 6:20 Where the forerunner is for us entered, even Yahshua, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
If Yeshua is a High Priest after the order of Melchisedec, then Rev 5 says..
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our Elohim kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
If you read Hebrews 6 - 11 You will notice how Shaul is explaining how this Priesthood came into existence.
I believe Yeshua is in fact Melchsedec as the Scripture shows
Heb 7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
King of Salem...This was the first name of the city of Jerusalem
Psa 76:2 In Salem also is his tabernacle, and his dwelling place in Zion.
King of righteousness.. Obviously Yeshua
King of Peace...again Obviously Yeshua
If you read Hebrews 6-11 you will see the essence of this,aswell as the Gospels.
Each Gospel shows us who Yeshua was and is, They are also our definition of the very Kingdom Priest we will eventually become as Saints of YAHWEH.
Mathew - He is KingMark- The Prophet Servant
Luke- He is the Son of Man
John- He is the Lord of Heaven , or the Son of YAHWEH
These show the attributes of Yeshua, and are also our guidelines of how we are to follow HIM in righteousness. Yeshua is our example, that we are to follow. He gives us HIS authority through gifts, of healing ,Prophesying, the casting out of Devils ..etc.etc.
We have the authority to baptize in HIS name for the remission of sins, that we with this athority guide those into the Kingdom. We are given HIS authority to lay hands which literally can pass the Holy Spirit to others as we utilize these gifts.
This is our authority of the Royal Priesthood, and we are to practice this.
Call them the New Covenant instruction books. You will notice that Hebrews 6-10 speak of the Kingly Priesthood, then it ties this into the New Covenant in chap.11.
Now we all know that the New Covenant has not come to it's completeness, and won't be until all is fulfilled. It will be then after the Resurrection of the Saints and the Kingdom has be reestablished that the fullness of our Royal Kingship will commence.
But until then we are commissioned by our King to represent and live a Kingdom lifestyle.
If you think about it and compare it to the Priesthood to that is in the Torah, you should see how it ties into why we are justified by Faith.
What is Faith, is it not obedience to the Word (Torah) This Faith justifies us utilizing the authority of the Royal Priesthood.
By which we are fully living a Kingdom lifestyle.
On point with what you're noting. Technically, I would think that the entire issue of Melchisedec is something that is not easy to dismiss. Even for any others saying what's noted in Hebrews 7 on his geneology simply being a myth, there's still the larger issue that cannot be ignored...and that is that Melchisedec was known to be a PRIEST. Not one of the Levitical priesthood which came later....and even after the Levitical priesthood came about, Melchisedec would still be considered a priest of a differing type, showing how it was possible for priests to be outside of the Levitical order and never changed. For others saying that the man was not truly Christ, that doesn't mean that the man could not have been a TYPE of Christ in the work He came to do Genesis 14:18
After Abram returned from defeating Kedorlaomer and the kings allied with him, the king of Sodom came out to meet him in the Valley of Shaveh (that is, the King’s Valley).
18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem[d] brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, 19 and he blessed Abram, saying,“Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Creator[e] of heaven and earth.
20 And blessed be[f] God Most High,
who delivered your enemies into your hand.”
Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything.
Other interpreters see Melchizedek as a type of Christ. The comment in Heb. 7 that "without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever," would be referring to Psalms 110 according to this interpretation. There, as we saw, Messiah is a priest forever. Also, they point out, Melchizedek was king of an actual Jebusite city--Salem. Whether Melchizedek was Christ himself, or a type of Christ is not really important because either way, the lesson is the same for us--Jesus Christ is the sole authorized priest for all time in our redeemption, all other priesthoods taking a secondary status.
For more: Some of that is not a hard thought when considering how the concept of types/shadows was presrent in other examples the writers of scripture used to show us future realities. We can see that in the example of David, who was a type of Christ as both Prophet/Priest and King....and whose Tent/Tabernacle was established according to Acts 15 when it came to showing the ways that a Non-Levitie reorganized worship for all (Jew and Gentile). There was a thread on the subject I was reminded of, entitled The Sukkah of David and the Davidic Covenant. With David being a priest, that doesn't mean he acted exactly as one within the Levitical priesthood....and the same goes for the sons of David who were known to be priests as well (even though the line of Judah had no right to the Davidic priesthood.
And on the issue of David's sons being priests: 2 Samuel 8:17-18
Benaiah son of Jehoiada was over the Kerethites and Pelethites; and David’s sons were priests.
If saying David's sons were priests, if correct (as the textual evidence seems unclear), one would have to suppose that membership into the priesthood was not limited to Levites in the time of DAvid. David already possessed significant power over the priesthood...with many saying he was a priest akin to Melchizedek (i.e. the king having the priest/prophet dynamic going to mirror the Messiah, who was also a High Priest)--and although Zadok was indeed the high priest according to the Word, in replacement of Abithar (more discussed here in # 45 as well as in 1 Kings 2:26-28 /, 1 Kings 1:44-46 , 1 Kings 2:34-36 , 2 Samuel 20:24-26 , 2 Samuel 15:34-36 , 2 Samuel 8:16-18 , 2 Samuel 15:23-25 , 1 Chronicles 15:10-12 , 1 Chronicles 24:2-4 , 1 Chronicles 29:21-23 ), it's possible David was also priestly in a different sense since David did many things that one would think only Zadok was allowed to do as a Levitical Highpriest.
And as it concerns the concept of others existing who were priests as well long before the Levitical priesthood came up, I'm reminded of Jethro being a prominent example, as he was a priest himself/righteous man according to Exodus 2:15-17 / Exodus 2 , Exodus 3 and Exodus 18 ..and alongside him, I'm also reminded of the example Job in Job 1:4-6 / Job 1 who'd often offer up prayers/sacfices on behalf of his children as a regular custom--a priestly function, just like it was with Melchizedek in Genesis 14. Many have often noted that Job lived in the time of the patriarchs..
It's up to the Lord to decide when/where, as He's the one who makes the rules and it's not to us to question them anymore than an employee has the right to question his boss because the boss decides to allow someone else to do something they didn't sign up for in their contract. Either the employee can assume they're in the same category as the one who is treated differently--or assume there's special treatment due to reasons they don't understand...or they can throw a fit/demand the boss treats them the same. ..or simply realize has differing requirements for others depending on what He desires and has the right to make allowance when he so chooses. In many ways, it goes back to what Yeshua noted in Matthew 20:2 with others getting angry for getting paid the same as those they felt worked "less" for it (even though the latter folks got paid according to the amount the boss set for them)--and the Boss let them know He was the focus, not them...and it was HIS money to do with as He pleased.
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"It is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men ." ( Fredrick Douglass ) Proverbs 18:15
"The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge; the ears of the wise seek it out." Proverbs 24:3-6
5 A wise man has great power,and a man of knowledge increases strength.
Last edited by Gxg (G²); 4th June 2012 at 11:18 AM.
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