I wasn't sure if this was suitable for ethics/morality or not, but I felt it wouldn't get the right kind of discussion if I put it in current events.
With dozens of Canadians dying every year while sitting on organ transplant wait lists, and so few signing up to be donors, some say the solution is to flip the system so that everyone is automatically considered a would-be donor unless they explicitly say they don't want to be.
Such a system, called a "presumed consent model," is already in use in more than 20 countries in Europe, where organ donation rates are consistently much higher than in Canada.
Ignore the "Canada" part.. I'm curious on your thoughts period, not having anything to do with Canada, but just on the subject of "presumed consent" regardless of where you live. Is it ethical to just presume someone contents to organ donation unless they opt out?
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Where I live (BC, Canada) we're sent organ donation cards with every single piece of mail it seems from the DMV and the healthcare system.. I am, in fact, not an organ donor so I'm not sure if the fact that they constantly send me organ donation cards is explicit for people like me or not (no pressure, clearly..), but the point is that I've been given every opportunity a hundred times over to become one. It isn't hard to sign the card and send it in -- laziness is certainly not why I've chosen not to sign. It's just that I've thought a lot about it and still, I'm just not sure for my own personal reasons.
I can't help but feel a switch to the "presumption" model is a miserable way of preying on people. Suddenly I don't have a choice but to say "Yes" or "No".. there's no signing a card that says "I don't really know yet" I'd imagine. So really they would be forcing my hand one way or the other.. and that won't go over well with me. I'd sign the card stating NO and be done with it, with very little chance of my changing my mind. At least right now, I'm still thinking about it.
They say organ donation rates in countries with the presumption model are "higher" -- yeah, of course they are. Because if you don't say no, they're going to cut you up and distribute you whether you wanted it or not. If you were "still deciding" and you died, you probably hadn't said "no" and were stuck automatically saying "yes" as a result.
And will they send me just as many cards in the mail under the presumption model asking me if I want to opt out? Somehow, I sort of doubt it.
So I don't know how I feel about it myself.
Thoughts?
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Well, the "cut you up and distribute you" was more commentary on the presumed consent model and not on the organ donation itself
I'm not an organ donor because I'm not an organ donor. I haven't decided. That's my choice. There are no religious reasons, no weird ethical reasons, no moral reasons.. I'm just not an organ donor because I haven't decided based on my own personal feelings. Sorry if that bugs you, but the last time I checked, it was in fact a choice.
Edit: Before the question comes up, I'm equally uncomfortable with the concept of receiving anyone else's organ as I am with giving mine out. When my own organs fail, at 31 or 91, that will be the end of my life.
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Last edited by Puptart; 27th May 2012 at 11:07 PM.
I'm not an organ donor because I'm not an organ donor. I haven't decided. That's my choice.
I don't think it should be. I can see the argument for unborn to have rights, but dead people?
I amend my previous statement, organ donation should be mandatory, with no opt out clause at all.
There are no religious reasons, no weird ethical reasons, no moral reasons.. I'm just not an organ donor because I haven't decided based on my own personal feelings. Sorry if that bugs you, but the last time I checked, it was in fact a choice.
Well as far as i can tell your reason basically is "I don't know why". Not sure how much of a discussion there is to be had based on that.
Societies come with responsibilities as well as rights.
Ignore the "Canada" part.. I'm curious on your thoughts period, not having anything to do with Canada, but just on the subject of "presumed consent" regardless of where you live. Is it ethical to just presume someone contents to organ donation unless they opt out?
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Where I live (BC, Canada) we're sent organ donation cards with every single piece of mail it seems from the DMV and the healthcare system.. I am, in fact, not an organ donor so I'm not sure if the fact that they constantly send me organ donation cards is explicit for people like me or not (no pressure, clearly..), but the point is that I've been given every opportunity a hundred times over to become one. It isn't hard to sign the card and send it in -- laziness is certainly not why I've chosen not to sign. It's just that I've thought a lot about it and still, I'm just not sure for my own personal reasons.
I can't help but feel a switch to the "presumption" model is a miserable way of preying on people. Suddenly I don't have a choice but to say "Yes" or "No".. there's no signing a card that says "I don't really know yet" I'd imagine. So really they would be forcing my hand one way or the other.. and that won't go over well with me. I'd sign the card stating NO and be done with it, with very little chance of my changing my mind. At least right now, I'm still thinking about it.
They say organ donation rates in countries with the presumption model are "higher" -- yeah, of course they are. Because if you don't say no, they're going to cut you up and distribute you whether you wanted it or not. If you were "still deciding" and you died, you probably hadn't said "no" and were stuck automatically saying "yes" as a result.
And will they send me just as many cards in the mail under the presumption model asking me if I want to opt out? Somehow, I sort of doubt it.
So I don't know how I feel about it myself.
Thoughts?
I think it makes a difference, but not in the way you're describing. If you were to die today, you wouldn't be "I don't know-ed." Your organs would not be donated. So, as it is, you're saying no. If you had to say no, explicitly, it would change your comfort level with saying no, but not the reality of saying it.
That comfort level is worth something, and so is the right to assume your body belongs to you unless you say otherwise.
I'm not sure I'd actively vote for an opt-out system, but I suspect I would have been ok with it if I'd been raised in a country where it existed, if the government supported individual civil liberties. I'd be comfortable with a general attitude of "as long as you're alive, you live as you see fit, but we assume you don't want your body anymore, if you die." I'd be far less comfortable with an "opt out," (or more likely, "automatic donation") system a country that also had a lot of oppression and civil rights abuses. The general message I'd feel there would be, "our ownership of you doesn't even stop when you die."
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That's a good point about being raised in a country that had it.. I suppose perhaps my attitude would be entirely different if that had been the case.
Even though we are far from an oppressed country, I feel "we own you, in life and in death" and that weighs heavily on my mind when I think about presumed consent -- No one owns me.. no one has a "right" to me or any part of me. You ask me and I will give you a yes, a no, or an "I'll think about it and consider it" (which is where I am). For my own country to potentially choose not to bother asking me.. I am not comfortable with that at all.
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I amend my previous statement, organ donation should be mandatory, with no opt out clause at all.
I can be glad that you are not in charge of my country, then.
Originally Posted by Blayz
Well as far as i can tell your reason basically is "I don't know why".
I feel the organ donation system has a lot of.. "issues". If I started talking about them though, they would all cause ravenous debate. This thread is about presumed consent only, not my personal issues with organ donation.
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That's a good point about being raised in a country that had it.. I suppose perhaps my attitude would be entirely different if that had been the case.
Even though we are far from an oppressed country, I feel "we own you, in life and in death" and that weighs heavily on my mind when I think about presumed consent -- No one owns me.. no one has a "right" to me or any part of me. You ask me and I will give you a yes, a no, or an "I'll think about it and consider it" (which is where I am). For my own country to potentially choose not to bother asking me.. I am not comfortable with that at all.
If I have wealth and I die, I could bequeath my wealth to whomever I'd like. By your logic, my wealth should be thrown out on the street to let people fight over it, because as a dead person, I would own nothing.
Perhaps part of my issues with organ donation, is that I don't care for the way organs are allocated at current. I would prefer to have far more say in where my organs would go.
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This could easily turn into "Berating Puptart over not being an organ donor" so I'm just gonna leave it here and see where it goes in a week or two, if anywhere
The topic is presumed consent. That's all.
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