Do we bring judgement on ourselves

New_Wineskin · #11 27th May 2012, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by Simon Peter

How can American Christian's justify rebellion against the King while condemning rebellion against Ceasar. And if rebellion against King George was justified, then why not rebellion against the current administration?

peace,
Simon

I have no doubt that this was a major debate among the colonies .
Also , a huge number were Anglicans - the king was their pope .

K2K · #12 28th May 2012, 01:47 AM

Originally Posted by Publius

First of all, if you're in Christ, then there is no more judgement. Christ has already taken it for you.

Second, disagreeing with government policies, particularly in a Republic founded on the principle of civic involvement, such as ours, is not rebelling against the government.

Unless you're committing treason or, at least, sedition, you're OK.

What does it mean "if you're in Christ, then there is no more judgement" - Does it mean that everybody that claims they are a Christian or even all those that have accepted Christ as their personal saviour are always right in their judgement?

Second "disagreeing with government policies" seems to me to imply that we have a judgmenet and that does not necessarily mean that we heard the Lord before making that judgement.

Now if a person hears from the Lord, then they are not agreeing or disagreeing with government polices but simply listening to the Lord. That is in Christ, and his judgement is then not his judgement at all, but Gods.

The Scriptures say -"Do not judge". A person just listening to the instrucitons of the Lord is not judging, but just recieving God's instructions and hearing God's judgement. God's judgements, and God's judgements alone are righteous.

The "Christian" that is leaning on his own understanding and making his own judgments without hearing from the Lord - is he in Christ?

Is 30:9 (NASB) For this is a rebellious people, false sons, Sons who refuse to listen to the instruction of the Lord.

Could a person say 'I am a Christian, and thus my judgements are righteous' even though their judgements are truly their judgements and not the Lords judgements? If then it is their judgements, can we conclude their judgment is right, even though it is theirs and not the Lords?

We may have forgiveness of sins and maybe works in progress, but we are suppose to be seeking the Lord for answers and not just doing and judging whatever we want as we see it. I do not see where it is "OK" to just judge as we wish without seeking the Lord. I do not see where it is "OK" to say I can complain and or even disagree with government policies by leaning on our understanding. Should we not seek the Lord in all things?

JimB · #13 29th May 2012, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by Publius

First of all, if you're in Christ, then there is no more judgement. Christ has already taken it for you.

Second, disagreeing with government policies, particularly in a Republic founded on the principle of civic involvement, such as ours, is not rebelling against the government.

Unless you're committing treason or, at least, sedition, you're OK.

Hmmm. I’m not sure about this viewpoint. Christians are saved from the final judgment, of course, but I am not sure you can say that we are saved from God’s judgment (think discipline) on our willfulness and sin. There are too many instances in the NT of believers, even churches, if you consider 1 Cor. 11.30, who were severely/painfully disciplined (as per Heb. 12.6-12). To tell a young believer that they are not under "judgment," while you may be technically correct, may cause them to mistakenly think that God does not discipline his children either and that it is sometimes "painful," (Heb. 12. unless it is tempered with what “judgment” and “discipline” mean.

I am also concerned at how Christians, even a few members of my church, talk about the President. Yes, the U.S. is a Republic and in this Republic our President was duly elected by its citizens, quite unlike Nero (the “ruler” at the time Paul wrote Romans), who was, 9in fact, insane and perhaps the greatest mass murderer of Christians who ever lived. Yet Paul said to “honor the king.” If he could honor Nero (who would later authorize Paul’s own execution) surely I can honor the President, even if I disagree with him and his policies. All power is still subject to the higher power. We can all speak in the election booth. We don’t have to disparage our President with partisan rancor in public forums.

~Jim

SharonL · #14 29th May 2012, 11:31 AM

Hi Jim: Spoken like a true believer - but I have a ways to go. I respect the office of the President - but I am having problems respecting the President.When I think of all the men and women who have died for our liberty and freedom and see it treated so carelessly by those in this administration - how can I drum up respect?

When you can see them lying, covering up criminal behavior (I'm talking about all politicans) and see the greed in how they handle taxpayers money with no accountability and no remorse - how can we drum up respect? Again I honor the offices, but not the people in them - I don't know how to drum up respect when they are caught in the act of crimes, lying and fraud.

JimB · #15 29th May 2012, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by SharonL

Hi Jim: Spoken like a true believer - but I have a ways to go. I respect the office of the President - but I am having problems respecting the President.When I think of all the men and women who have died for our liberty and freedom and see it treated so carelessly by those in this administration - how can I drum up respect?

When you can see them lying, covering up criminal behavior (I'm talking about all politicans) and see the greed in how they handle taxpayers money with no accountability and no remorse - how can we drum up respect? Again I honor the offices, but not the people in them - I don't know how to drum up respect when they are caught in the act of crimes, lying and fraud.

But politicians have always lied to us, both Democrat and Republican just as Nero lied about who set fire to Rome. What's new? Yet Peter, who was also executed by Nero along with Paul, said to “honor” him (1 Peter 2.17) and Paul told us that to resist governemental authority (whether we agree with it or not) was to “resist the ordinance of God" since all authority is subject to God and rulers (think Nero) are, in fact, in effect ministers, instruments, of God for civil good.

I imagine that had you been the recipient of Paul’s/Peter’s advice in the first century you would have been shocked, too. Nero was evil to the max. No one in history except perhaps Hitler or Atilla the Hun could match him. For all President Obama’s errors, willful or otherwise, and for whatever one may think of his character, he is still my President and I am to honor him as such. This calls for the best in me but it is what God expects. Scripture is to be lived, not just quoted.

BTW, much of accusations against Obama come from an alleged "(un)fair and (un)balanced" source. Some of it may be true, but I am skeptical of 24/7 news which I think is often just made up to fill the time. Whatever, IMO, governement is too important to be left to politicians, lawyers, and TV anchor men.

~Jim

I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. ~C.S. Lewis

SharonL · #16 29th May 2012, 01:04 PM

Hi Jim: I realize that a lot of stuff is made up on both sides - but when you look at every chart you want to pull up - they all go straight down - except debt - that goes straight up. There are lots of things that are not right - I just cannot get it through my head that God wants us to agree with things that are not right and how can you separate the fact of right or wrong to have respect. I can usually sort thing out - but this I cannot - there is so much wrong, if we just stand back and accept - it gets even worse. I understand what you are saying and I know that is what the Bible says, but I'm having a problem connecting it to my mind. - But the Bible does say that in the end times right will seem wrong and wrong will seem right - maybe that is where we are.

paul1149 · #17 29th May 2012, 10:21 PM

I think another way to come at this is to realize that certain attitudes are not beneficial. Complaining generally is one of them. Bitterness is another. I fall into this myself when I follow the course our republic is taking. It is hard not to.

The reason these things are bad is that they are anti-faith. They deny God's sovereign hand at work in our circumstances.

But what is not sin is calling out when the nation is taking a wrong path or falling short:

Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. -eph 5.11

There is the concept of the loyal opposition - loyal to the nation, but against the policies being implemented. There is a way this can be done and not break our witness for Christ. Indeed, love cannot sit by and passively allow evil to triumph, but we have to be careful about how we fight the battle.

SharonL · #18 30th May 2012, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by paul1149

I think another way to come at this is to realize that certain attitudes are not beneficial. Complaining generally is one of them. Bitterness is another. I fall into this myself when I follow the course our republic is taking. It is hard not to.

The reason these things are bad is that they are anti-faith. They deny God's sovereign hand at work in our circumstances.

But what is not sin is calling out when the nation is taking a wrong path or falling short:
Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. -eph 5.11

There is the concept of the loyal opposition - loyal to the nation, but against the policies being implemented. There is a way this can be done and not break our witness for Christ. Indeed, love cannot sit by and passively allow evil to triumph, but we have to be careful about how we fight the battle.

Paul - great answer - just what I was looking for. I could not wrap my mind around agreeing with something that goes against the Bible just because they are the government. I have a hard time praying for them. But I try - but God knows if it is sincere or not and I'm afraid I can't pray for them to succeed when they implement laws that go against God.

Publius · #19 30th May 2012, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by JimB

Hmmm. I’m not sure about this viewpoint.

Paul seemed pretty sure:

1There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.a 2For the law of the Spirit of life has set youb free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,c he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Christians are saved from the final judgment, of course, but I am not sure you can say that we are saved from God’s judgment (think discipline) on our willfulness and sin. There are too many instances in the NT of believers, even churches, if you consider 1 Cor. 11.30, who were severely/painfully disciplined (as per Heb. 12.6-12). To tell a young believer that they are not under "judgment," while you may be technically correct, may cause them to mistakenly think that God does not discipline his children either and that it is sometimes "painful," (Heb. 12. unless it is tempered with what “judgment” and “discipline” mean.

"Discipline" is not judgement.

paul1149 · #20 30th May 2012, 09:45 AM

Sharon,

I too have had the hardest time praying for some leaders. I knew we are told to, but the arrogance of some of them stuns me, and the thought of blessing them was frankly repugnant.

Then I was in prayer recently and the topic of praying for them came up again. I asked the Lord, how could I do this? Then I was reminded of the sick feeling I get when I catch myself in a sinful attitude, when I see my utter unworthiness, that it's all as filthy rags. The Lord then said that if I pray for revelation to come on these people, so that they see what they actually are doing, and repent, this is the same feeling they too will feel at first. The point wasn’t that I should desire to make them feel bad. It was that I wasn’t trying to bless something that was evil, and it was an assurance that God knows full well how to deal with those who willfully choose to mock Him. It was freeing to know that I could pray for their true wellbeing, and God would apply the prayer exactly as it needs to be applied.