Ok, I'm curious if anyone has any answer to this. I've been thinking about what happens to the soul at the point of death. I know some believe in the 'soul sleep' theory, that we basically rest until judgment day. And I know some believe that at death the soul would no longer be bound by time as we know it, and would therefore transcend time and would seemingly arrive at judgment day instantaneously.
I personally think the latter is more likely, however really I feel like it's basically the same. Either way would feel like instant judgment. My question is are there other theories out there or is this pretty well agreed upon?
I'm mostly curious because my belief is that at the end of time when the wicked are cast into the lake of fire, they will perish. I realize that's a matter of opinion and some people don't agree with that, but bear with me...
I'm trying to come to a conclusion here because if the soul does in fact transcend time and arrive instantly at the time of judgment and assuming the wicked perish in the lake of fire, then there is no torment in hell, just destruction of the soul. I'm not really sure what the other option could be though, or if there is another option. No matter how I think of it, hell and the lake of fire always end up being the same thing. Can anyone shed some light on this topic?
We have been discussing death and hell a lot in the Unorthodox Section.
Usually every thread asking about hell ends up there. This is all related to the question "What is a soul, anyhow?"
Since I am not "orthodox" I can't answer anything here.
I'm trying to come to a conclusion here because if the soul does in fact transcend time and arrive instantly at the time of judgment and assuming the wicked perish in the lake of fire, then there is no torment in hell, just destruction of the soul. I'm not really sure what the other option could be though, or if there is another option. No matter how I think of it, hell and the lake of fire always end up being the same thing. Can anyone shed some light on this topic?
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life" - Matthew 25:46.
If the soul that receives eternal life must be immortal to experience such a life, then so is the soul that receives eternal punishment, as the duration of each is the same: everlasting. The word "eternal" to describe life is the same word to describe punishment. If not, then we could say that "eternal" in regards to life ends.
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life" - Matthew 25:46.
If the soul that receives eternal life must be immortal to experience such a life, then so is the soul that receives eternal punishment, as the duration of each is the same: everlasting. The word "eternal" to describe life is the same word to describe punishment. If not, then we could say that "eternal" in regards to life ends.
The same verse in the KJV says 'everlasting punishment.' To be destroyed completely would certainly constitute as both 'everlasting' and a punishment. Not trying to start a debate over this view point though. Just curious how if Heaven and hell are outside of time, then how can anyone draw the conclusion that people are suffering in hell as we speak? If the soul is contained in the physical body until the day of judgment, or if it immediately is judged it would follow that it gets cast into the lake of fire right away. Just trying to reconcile hell vs the lake of fire.
And sorry to the mods if this is in the wrong area, feel free to move it if it's better suited under another section.
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life" - Matthew 25:46.
If the soul that receives eternal life must be immortal to experience such a life, then so is the soul that receives eternal punishment, as the duration of each is the same: everlasting. The word "eternal" to describe life is the same word to describe punishment. If not, then we could say that "eternal" in regards to life ends.
Originally Posted by rychusj
The same verse in the KJV says 'everlasting punishment.' To be destroyed completely would certainly constitute as both 'everlasting' and a punishment. Not trying to start a debate over this view point though. Just curious how if Heaven and hell are outside of time, then how can anyone draw the conclusion that people are suffering in hell as we speak? If the soul is contained in the physical body until the day of judgment, or if it immediately is judged it would follow that it gets cast into the lake of fire right away. Just trying to reconcile hell vs the lake of fire.
And sorry to the mods if this is in the wrong area, feel free to move it if it's better suited under another section.
the basic greek αιωνιον there means everlasting, which basically takes care of this issue. In English, it can't be understood as eternal for eternal means "without beginning or end" And I'm sorry, but only God is eternal. everlasting is better, for it means "forever or a very long time." And not to play with words, but forever means "for all future time." This is a more accurate explanation of our soul and how long it's punished and how long our "eternal" life lasts.
Plus, I'm not sure we can say heaven and hell are outside of time. For we are told a new heaven and a new earth will be made, though we can be sure –about heaven at least– that it will last forever. this doesn't really imply timelessness.
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Ok, I'm curious if anyone has any answer to this. I've been thinking about what happens to the soul at the point of death.
The Rich man in Hades (Luke 16:19-31), spoke to Abraham and asked for Lazarus to come with a drop of water (in the present) and if someone could tell his brothers of this terrible place of torment. This was not a parable. Parables don't use abstract locations and names of specific people to figuratively or metaphorically mean something else. Hades is a real place (not just 6 feet under)and these men are real.This rich man just died but was not pushed forward in time to Judgment Day. The Bible says we are already judged if we don't believe in Christ and the wrath of God abides in us. At the moment of death, his soul went to Hades. He remains in Hades until the end of the age at which time Hades will be thrown into the Lake of Fire and destroyed along with everyone in it (unless God desides a more immediate destruction). I'm not an adherent of the traditional eternal (aionios) hell but I guess I can't discuss that in this area. ??? I can't imagine a boy who dies unsaved, suffering in torment for etenity. It's like a child getting a life sentence for stealing a bar of candy.
Not to get deep into it, aionios has variable meanings that either apply to God, his domain, our salvation OR temporal things that last a lifetime, generation, ages, an epoch of time, hence, these things will pass away. This is why everlasting does not mean eternal (an English word btw). It should be translated age-lasting or age-during when describing temporal things. If all former things pass away and behold, He creates all things new, then you see where I'm going with this.
Another point is that Jesus spoke of Capernam comparing it to Sodom and Gomorrah, and of their yet future judgment. "But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”</SPAN> Matt.11:24
Sodom being 1900 BCE in the past has yet received their full punishment.
Ok, I'm curious if anyone has any answer to this. I've been thinking about what happens to the soul at the point of death. I know some believe in the 'soul sleep' theory, that we basically rest until judgment day. And I know some believe that at death the soul would no longer be bound by time as we know it, and would therefore transcend time and would seemingly arrive at judgment day instantaneously.
I personally think the latter is more likely, however really I feel like it's basically the same. Either way would feel like instant judgment. My question is are there other theories out there or is this pretty well agreed upon?
Certainly it is true that from the standpoint of the person who dies - the transition to life is instant - whether you believe in the Bible teaching on soul sleep or not.
In Matt 22 Christ proves the doctrine of the resurrection based on soul sleep as the means of proving it. Christ said to the Sadducees "God is not the God of the dead" and so that proved the future resurrection because of the case with Moses where God says HE is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
For many today - it would be proof of an immortal soul not the fact of a future resurrection.
But for those with the right view of soul sleep in death "Lazarus SLEEPS I go that I may wake HIM" John 11 - it is proof of future resurrection.
So also in 1Thess 4 regarding "Those who have fallen asleep... the Dead in Christ shall rise first".
So given that both views claim the one who dies will still see this death as instant-transport-to-life and resurrection in the heavenly eternal body of 2Cor 5:1-2 --- who cares whether you reject the Bible doctrine in John 11 and 1Thess 4 on "soul sleep" where as we find in Eccl 9:5-6 "The dead know not anything"???
Well one huge gap is in the matter of "prayers to the dead" -- there can be no such thing in a soul sleep Bible model.
There huge gap - is no such thing as a seance where witches have power to bring up the dead saints. Those who reject the Bible teaching on Soul sleep will often seek out examples of witches claiming to bring up dead saints and speak to them - as their example of "proof" of their POV. A huge problem to be avoided. A huge problem solved by the Bible model on soul sleep.
The Rich man in Hades (Luke 16:19-31), spoke to Abraham and asked for Lazarus to come with a drop of water (in the present) and if someone could tell his brothers of this terrible place of torment. .
That is a parable. In that parable there prayers to the dead, there is all the dead saints sitting in Abraham's lap. There is no prayer to God at all. Abraham alone is sovereign over all the dead saints and still Abraham calls them all "dead" for he says "neither will someone believe though one rises from the DEAD".
in the summary to this parable the point is made that "IF they will not listen to MOSES then neither will they listen though one (Christ) rises from the Dead". Luke 16:31.
How often when people try to make points from this parable - do they ignore the entire concluding teaching the parable was designed to teach.
And how interesting that even Bible scholars that reject the Bible teaching on Soul Sleep - will still admit that this is a parable.!
I'm aware that SDA's believe in soul sleep, that your soul goes out of existence and then at the resurrection, it's brought to life again and that sheol means the grave (6ft under), etc. There are so many scriptures to disprove that ... I'll pass ... at the end of it, we'll both continue believing what we do -- waste of time.
Linear Mode
